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Background. Given a poset $(S,<)$ we'll indicate with $\tau(S,<)$ the set of all the ordinals which are isomorphic to a well ordered subset of $(S,<)$. We're in $\mathsf{ZFC}$.

Questions.

  1. Calculate $\tau(\varepsilon_0,<^*)$, where $\varepsilon_0$ is the smallest $\varepsilon$-number (the least fixed point of $x \mapsto \omega^x$) and $<^*$ is the converse of the usual ordering of ordinals.
  2. Calculate $\tau(\mathbb Z^2,<_{\textrm{lex}})$, where $<_{\textrm{lex}}$ is the lexicographic order.
  3. Calculate $\tau(\mathbb Z[x],\prec)$, where $p \prec q$ is defined as $\exists N \in \mathbb Z \ \forall x > N \ p(x) < q(x)$ (and $<$ is the usual ordering of integers).

My (partial) solutions. General remark: $\tau(S,<)$ is always an ordinal itself (it's pretty easy to check directly).

  1. $\tau(\varepsilon_0,<^*) = \omega$, since every finite ordinal is isomorphic to its converse we've $\omega \subseteq \tau(\varepsilon_0,<^*)$, now I just need to prove that $(\varepsilon_0,<^*)$ doesn't have any countable well ordered subset. If there was a well ordered countable subset $A$ of $(\varepsilon_0,<^*)$, then, with respect to the normal order $<$ of ordinals, every non empty subset of $A$ (included $A$ itself) has a greatest element, so I could construct a $\aleph_0$ descendent chain and, since the ordering of ordinals is given by membership relation $\in$, this would contradict the axiom of foundation (regularity).
    I'm pretty sure about the result but not for my last argument (I may be overthinking and there could be a much simpler reason why such an $A$ cannot exists).
  2. $\tau(\mathbb Z^2,<_{\textrm{lex}}) = \omega^2 + 1$, it should be pretty easy to check that $(\omega^2,<) \cong (\mathbb Z_{\geq 0} \times \mathbb Z_{\geq 0}, <_{\textrm{lex}})$, so $\omega^2 \in \tau(\mathbb Z^2,<_{\textrm{lex}}) \implies \omega^2 \subseteq \tau(\mathbb Z^2,<_{\textrm{lex}})$. Therefore if I prove that there's no well ordered subset of $(\mathbb Z^2,<_{\textrm{lex}})$ isomorphic to $\omega^2 + 1$ I'll conclude. My intuition is that there's not enough space in $(\mathbb Z^2,<_{\textrm{lex}})$ for this order type since we'd need a subset like $\mathbb Z_{\geq 0} \times \mathbb Z_{\geq 0}$ with a greatest element, but such a thing doesn't exists in $(\mathbb Z^2,<_{\textrm{lex}})$. I don't know how to write it down properly with a formal argoument though.
  3. $\tau(\mathbb Z[x],\prec) = \omega^\omega + 1$, with a similar argument as above, firstly I notice that $(\omega^\omega,<) \cong (\mathbb Z_{\geq 0}[x],\prec)$, in fact $\omega^\omega$ identifies with $S = \{f : \omega \to \omega : |\operatorname{supp}(f)|<\aleph_0\}$, which is ordered confronting $f,g \in S$ on the greatest element $x \in \omega$ where $f(x) \ne g(x)$, and then: $$S \to \mathbb Z_{\geq 0}[x] : f \mapsto p_f(x) = \sum_{0 \leq i \leq |\operatorname{supp}(f)|} f(i)\cdot x^i$$ is an isomorphism (all the checks should be easy). Thus $\omega^\omega \in \tau(\mathbb Z[x],\prec)$, and, just like above I need to show that there no well ordered subset of $\tau(\mathbb Z[x],\prec)$ isomorphic to $\omega^\omega + 1$.

Are my answers correct? (I'm pretty confident for 1 and 2, but I may be wrong about 3) If so how can I argument formally to conclude?

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    $\begingroup$ Good thinking so far. I think your answer for 1 is correct. How you justify it depends on your taste/definitions - personally I would just say it's because a well-ordered set can have no infinite decreasing sequence (that's equivalent to being well-ordered in fact). Your ideas for 2 and 3 seem reasonable! I think a natural "question 1.5" would be to work out $\tau(\Bbb Z, <)$. The way I would do this is to first prove that any order-embedding $\phi: \omega \to \Bbb Z$ must be unbounded, eg by proving that $\phi(n) \ge n + \phi(0)$. Can you see how that works, and generalise it for 2 and 3? $\endgroup$ Commented May 18 at 0:39
  • $\begingroup$ @IzaakvanDongen you're right about 1, I totally forgot about that fact, it's a lot easier argument ahah $\endgroup$ Commented May 18 at 0:53
  • $\begingroup$ @IzaakvanDongen given $\phi : \omega \to \mathbb Z$ an order-embedding, it follows easily by induction that $\forall n \in \omega \ \phi(0) + n \leq \phi(n)$ ($\phi(0) \leq \phi(0)$ and $\phi(0) + n \leq \phi(n) < \phi(n+1) \implies \phi(0) + (n+1) \leq \phi(n + 1)$). Now this means that there is no order-embedding $f : \omega + 1 \to \mathbb Z$ (and obviously it won't work for any ordinal $\alpha\geq \omega +1$), since $f(\omega)$ should be greater than any element in $f[\omega] = \{f(i) \in \mathbb{Z} : i \in \omega\}$, but, as we've just proved, this set is unbounded in $\mathbb Z$. 1/4 $\endgroup$ Commented May 18 at 21:31
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    $\begingroup$ That sounds about right! (A slick version of) the presentation I had in mind is: "suppose $\phi:\omega^2\to\Bbb Z^2$ is an order-embedding. Let $\psi(n)$ be the first component of $\phi(\omega n)$. Then $\psi(n)<\psi(n+1)$ (using 1.5), so $\psi:\omega\to\Bbb Z$ is unbounded, so $\phi$ is unbounded. (Probably you should give more detail!) Then you can generalise to show that any $\phi:\omega^n\to\Bbb Z^n$ is unbounded, and then finally show that any $\phi:\omega^\omega\to\Bbb Z[x]$ is unbounded (assume WLOG (<- justify this) that $\phi(0)=0$ - what can you say about $\phi(\omega^n)$?) $\endgroup$ Commented May 18 at 22:40
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    $\begingroup$ I think you are overthinking it a bit (no worries). It's a quick corollary of 1.5, which shouldn't involve too much getting-your-hands-dirty. The point is that if $\psi(n) = \psi(n + 1)$, then $\phi$ restricts to an order-embedding of $\{\omega n, \omega n + 1, \omega n + 2, \dotsc, \omega(n + 1)\}$ into $\{\psi(n)\} \times \Bbb Z$ (and these two sets are order-isomorphic to sets we already know)... Much of the difficulty here seems to be in trying to avoid getting bogged down in fiddly details. $\endgroup$ Commented May 19 at 10:27

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