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Brachistochrone problem

The time to travel from point $p_1$ to $p_2$ is given by this integral $$t_{12}=\int_{p_1}^{p_2}\frac{ds}{v}.$$ With $ds=\sqrt{dx^2+dy^2}=\sqrt{1+y'^2}\,dx$ and $v=\sqrt{2g\,y}$, we obtain $$t_{12}=\int_{p_1}^{p_2}\underbrace{\sqrt{\frac{1+y'^2}{2g\,y(x)}}}_{f(y,y')}\,dx,$$ and because the function $f$ is Independent of $x$, we can use the Beltrami identity $$f-y'\frac{\partial f}{\partial y'}=c\tag 1$$ to obtain the solution.

Instead, I want to use a different approach. Taking $ds=\sqrt{\dot x^2+\dot y^2}\,dt$ and $v=\sqrt{2g\,y}$ gives $$ t_{12}\mapsto\int_{p_1}^{p_2}\frac{\sqrt{\dot x^2+\dot y^2}\,dt}{\sqrt{2g\,y}},$$ which implies $$f(y,\dot{y},\dot{x})=\sqrt{\frac{\dot{x}^2+\dot{y}^2}{2g\,y}}\equiv\mathcal L(y,\dot{y},\dot{x}).$$ So the first integral is $$\left(\frac{\partial \mathcal L}{\partial{\dot{x}}}\right)^2=c.\tag 2$$ From equation (2), I obtain the equation $$\frac{\dot x^2}{(\dot x^2+\dot y^2)y}=\tilde k^2,$$ implying $$\frac{(\dot x^2+\dot y^2)y}{\dot x^2}=k^2,$$ which reduces to $$(1+y'^2)y(x)=k^{2},$$ to which the solution is $$x(t)=\frac{k^2}{2}[t-\sin(t)],\quad y(t)=\frac{k^2}{2}[1-\cos(t)],$$ which is indeed the solution of brachistochrone problem.

So what is wrong with this approach?

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    $\begingroup$ It seems to be the same answer, just expressed very differently and very much more difficult to get the answer from the method avoiding Beltrami identity. Why should textbook authors waste paper talking about solution methods that are unnecessarily difficult? $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 2, 2023 at 17:37
  • $\begingroup$ How do you get your "first integraL". As you have two variables $x(t)$, $y(t)$ the first integral should be $$ f- \dot x \frac{\partial f}{\partial \dot x} -\dot y \frac{\partial f}{\partial \dot y}=c $$ Also you have a constraint $v= \sqrt{\dot x^2+\dot y^2}$ which makes your functional $$ T= \int \frac v v dt= \int dt, $$ which, being identically satisfied, does not seem much use. $\endgroup$
    – mike stone
    Commented Jul 2, 2023 at 17:40
  • $\begingroup$ Related : Another Solution To Brachistochrone Problem. My notes on brachistochrone $\endgroup$
    – Frobenius
    Commented Jul 2, 2023 at 21:08
  • $\begingroup$ @Eli : Precisely. It's not wrong and identical to my notes equation (1.13). Note that for your constant we have $\;k=1/D=1/(2R)\;$ where $\;R=D/2\;$ the radius of the circle. $\endgroup$
    – Frobenius
    Commented Jul 3, 2023 at 8:47
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    $\begingroup$ @mikestone If I'm not mistaken the first integral comes from the fact that $\partial f/\partial x = 0$, implying that $d/dt(\partial f/\partial \dot{x}) = 0$. (b) This sort of "identical" variational principle can still be of use; for example, one can derive the geodesic equation on a manifold by defining an arbitrary curve $\vec{q}(\lambda)$ and then varying the arc length $S = \int ds = \int \sqrt{ g_{ij} \dot{q}^i(\lambda) \dot{q}^j(\lambda)} d \lambda$. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 3, 2023 at 15:03

2 Answers 2

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Your equation $$ \frac{\dot x^2}{(\dot x^2+\dot y^2)\,y}=\tilde k^2\quad\Rightarrow \frac{(\dot x^2+\dot y^2)\,y}{\dot x^2}=k^2 \tag{1} $$ is correct. This is effectively a consequence of the Euler-Lagrange equation $$ \frac{d}{dt} \left( \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \dot{x}} \right) = \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial x}, $$ noting that $\partial \mathcal{L}/\partial x = 0$. In general, though, this would not be sufficient to identify the solutions; you would also need to take into account the equation of motion for $y$, $$ \frac{d}{dt} \left( \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \dot{y}} \right) = \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial y}. $$ If you are given an arbitrary Lagrangian depending on two functions, there is no guarantee that a solution that works for one of the equations of motion will necessarily work for the other. So it's not a valid move to take one of the equations of motion, find a solution for it, and claim that it's the solution that extremizes the action.

Now, it happens that you can get away with only solving the $x$ equation in this particular case. For example, here's another solution to (1): $$ \tag{2} x(t) = k^2 \sin^{-1} \left( \frac{\sqrt{t}}{k}\right) - \sqrt{ t(k^2 - t)} \qquad y = t. $$ In fact, you can generate any number of solutions to (1) by just setting $y(t)$ to be any function you want, solving the resulting equation for $\dot{x}$, and integrating.

But it turns out if you do this you'll still end up with the same curve, just reparametrized in a weird way. (It is left as an exercise to the reader to show what the relationship is between the $t$ in (2) and the $t$ in the OP's original solution.) This is because your Lagrangian has reparametrization invariance; your integral for the time of travel works out to have exactly the same form even if you replace $t$ in your integral with an arbitary parameter $\lambda(t)$. This "hidden symmetry" effectively means that you can set either $x(t)$ or $y(t)$ to be whatever you want it to be; it just corresponds to a change of parameter, and a solution to one EOM will necessarily solve the other as well. (I think.)

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  • $\begingroup$ thank you for your response . I agree with you, but i can transfer the equation to this one $\frac{\dot x^2}{(\dot x^2+\dot y^2)\,y}=k\quad\Rightarrow\quad \frac{1}{(1+y'^2)\,y(x)}=k$ and solve it for $~y(x)$ $\endgroup$
    – Eli
    Commented Jul 3, 2023 at 17:44
  • $\begingroup$ @Eli You can, but isn't that ultimately the same equation that comes from the Beltrami identity? I thought you were trying to avoid using it. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 3, 2023 at 17:48
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what is the relation between the first integral and the Betrami Identity

assume that the Lagrangian is a function $~y~,\dot{y}~,\dot{x}~$ but not a function of x $~L=L(~y~,\dot{y}~,\dot{x}~)~$ from here it follows that \begin{align*} & \frac{dL}{dt}= \frac{\partial L}{\partial\dot{x}}\ddot{x}+ \frac{\partial L}{\partial y}\dot{y}+ \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{y}}\ddot{y} \tag 1 \end{align*}

and with Euler Lagrange equations \begin{align*} &\frac{\partial L}{\partial y}=\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{y}}\quad, \frac{\partial L}{\partial x}=\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{x}}=0 \quad\Rightarrow \frac{\partial L}{\partial\dot{x}}=c\quad,\text{(this is the first integral)} \end{align*} substitute to equation (1) \begin{align*} & \frac{dL}{dt}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial\dot{x}}\ddot{x}+ \left(\frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{y}}\right)\dot{y}+ \frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{y}}\ddot{y}=\frac{\partial L}{\partial\dot{x}}\,\frac{d}{dt}\dot{x}+ \frac{d}{dt}\left(\,\dot{y}\,\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{y}}\right) \end{align*} and integrate \begin{align*} &L=\frac{\partial L}{\partial\dot{x}}\,\dot{x}+\,\dot{y}\,\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{y}}\quad,\text{or} \end{align*} \begin{align*} & \frac{\partial L}{\partial\dot{x}}\,\dot{x}=\underbrace{L-\dot{y}\,\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot{y}}}_{\text{Betrami identity}}=k \end{align*} with $~\dot{y}=y'\,\dot{x}~$ \begin{align*} & \frac{\partial L}{\partial\dot{x}}\,\dot{x}={L-y'\,\dot{x}\,\frac{\partial L}{\partial\dot{y}}}\bigg|_{\dot{y}=y'\,\dot x}=k\quad,\Rightarrow \end{align*}

\begin{align*} &\boxed{~~\frac{\partial L}{\partial\dot{x}}\bigg|_{\dot{y}=y'\,\dot x}= L(y,y')-y'\,\frac{\partial L}{\partial y'}=k~~} \end{align*}

Example

\begin{align*} &L=\sqrt{\frac{1+y'^2}{y}}\quad,\text{with} y'=\frac{\dot{y}}{\dot{x}}\quad, L= \sqrt{\frac{\dot{x}^2+\dot{y}^2}{y}} \end{align*}

\begin{align*} & \frac{\partial L}{\partial\dot{x}}=\frac{\dot{x}}{\sqrt{(\dot{x}^2+\dot{y}^2)}\,\sqrt{y}} \overset{\text{with}~~ \dot{y}=y'\,\dot{x}}{=} \frac{1}{\sqrt{1+y'^2}\,\sqrt{y}} \end{align*}

Conclusion

we can use the First integral to obtain $~y(x)~$

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