PCs last longer than Macs

[chmania]

Your device might malfunction due to these compatibility or other issues.

Have you such a "Windows" PC that malfunctions? Or, just saying?

Devices that do not meet these system requirements will no longer be guaranteed to receive updates, including but not limited to security updates

The Windows 11 OS gets updates of all kind, so it works in older machines. That's the difference with Macs, which get obsoleted within few years -- the new macOS won't work in them. But, OCLP makes them work. So, it looks like OCLP is better at it, than Apple.

 

[digidude]

My Macintosh SE runs just fine. It’s getting harder to find 3.5” floppies though.

I have a 40 year old Mac that runs just fine. Doesn’t run Windows 11 though, you got me there bub. Thank God because it sucks.

This is the dumbest post I’ve ever seen on this debate anywhere. It’s laughable to say pc hardware lasts longer…sure, there are a few exceptions, Sony notoriously makes good stuff due to their long history of manufacturing hardware.

You come here in a Mac focused website and post this garbage, you are of course just a troll trying to start something.

Forget it, bully. WE DON’T CARE. You keep on using your 2008 Windows computer running a lemming speed bro. You do you.

 

[Ethosik]

Have you such a "Windows" PC that malfunctions? Or, just saying?

The Windows 11 OS gets updates of all kind, so it works in older machines. That's the difference with Macs, which get obsoleted within few years -- the new macOS won't work in them. But, OCLP makes them work. So, it looks like OCLP is better at it, than Apple.

Microsoft themselves are saying they will not guarantee it will work. In the link you literally sent. So you can hack macOS to run on 2008 systems too. Both have the same “you are on your own”.

 

[iHorseHead]

I never understand why Apple is the sole target for this. It’s an industry problem. You can find dozens of examples but here is one:

Dell Latitude 13 Inch 7330 Rugged Laptop | Dell USA

13" rugged laptop with enhanced battery life, 5G connection, up to Intel® Core™ i7 processors andtouch-responsive, 1400-nit sunlight viewable screen.

www.dell.com

Isn't that laptop too extreme?

 

[iHorseHead]

My Macintosh SE runs just fine. It’s getting harder to find 3.5” floppies though.

I have a 40 year old Mac that runs just fine. Doesn’t run Windows 11 though, you got me there bub. Thank God because it sucks.

This is the dumbest post I’ve ever seen on this debate anywhere. It’s laughable to say pc hardware lasts longer…sure, there are a few exceptions, Sony notoriously makes good stuff due to their long history of manufacturing hardware.

You come here in a Mac focused website and post this garbage, you are of course just a troll trying to start something.

Forget it, bully. WE DON’T CARE. You keep on using your 2008 Windows computer running a lemming speed bro. You do you.

I feel like you missed the whole point of my post… My point was Apple should provide security updates for a little longer if they drop a Mac. They drop security updates too fast.

 

[iHorseHead]

Microsoft themselves are saying they will not guarantee it will work. In the link you literally sent. So you can hack macOS to run on 2008 systems too. Both have the same “you are on your own”.

Yeah, but Apple Discussions deletes posts that mention OpenCore Legacy. Microsoft doesn't.

 

[Ethosik]

Yeah, but Apple Discussions deletes posts that mention OpenCore Legacy. Microsoft doesn't.

Because it prevents mixed messages like you all are saying here. Call up Microsoft support on a 2008 system on Windows 11. Once they know the specs, they will not help you.

Microsoft is making things more difficult here giving the wrong message. They do NOT support older builds. They shouldn’t have that article as it just causes confusion. Something Apple doesn’t want.

 

[chmania]

Microsoft themselves are saying they will not guarantee it will work. In the link you literally sent.

Would Apple do something like that? Or would Apple love to close down OCLP? GitHub is owned by Microsoft, by the way.

 

[iHorseHead]

Because it prevents mixed messages like you all are saying here. Call up Microsoft support on a 2008 system on Windows 11. Once they know the specs, they will not help you.

Microsoft is making things more difficult here giving the wrong message. They do NOT support older builds. They shouldn’t have that article as it just causes confusion. Something Apple doesn’t want.

Ok, I might agree with that, but doesn't change the fact that Windows 10 still receives security updates on 2008 system, thus is more secure.

 

[Ethosik]

Ok, I might agree with that, but doesn't change the fact that Windows 10 still receives security updates on 2008 system, thus is more secure.

That is Microsoft’s biggest double edge sword and why a lot of us hate windows. Microsoft is the king of compatibility that even 2001 and Direct X 8 games can still work on Windows 11. But that means Windows is being held back in many ways.

 

[PowerMac5500]

I've got a PPC G4 tower that begs to differ.

 

[jakey rolling]

I've got a PPC G4 tower that begs to differ.

I've got a Pentium II tower that would differ with you. Of course, just like my iMac G4, the only thing it really does is play a few old games now. Though the iMac does make a nifty virtual fish aquarium.

 

[jakey rolling]

I never understand why Apple is the sole target for this. It’s an industry problem. You can find dozens of examples but here is one:

Dell Latitude 13 Inch 7330 Rugged Laptop | Dell USA

13" rugged laptop with enhanced battery life, 5G connection, up to Intel® Core™ i7 processors andtouch-responsive, 1400-nit sunlight viewable screen.

www.dell.com

I'm not sure if you intended to be factitious with that example or if you're actually being serious.

 

[ignatius345]

The real problem is that Google keeps suggesting Apple Discussions in search results. Someone at Google needs to blacklist the site from search results. It's totally useless.

True. I will say, whatever SEO type stuff is happening with MacRumors is quite solid. I have sometimes run a search on an issue and come across... my own post on this forum asking the same question 🤣

 

[jakey rolling]

What percent of people who are cheap enough to be using an 8+ year old laptop do you think would pay a subscription fee for extended support?

The extended support options that Microsoft provide are not for people who are "too cheap to upgrade". It is for business that rely on legacy hardware or software (think manufacturing control software for example) where upgrading those systems are often either prohibitively expensive (think hundreds of millions of dollars) or impossible (because OEM is kaput).

The biggest takeaway from supporting Apple for decades (especially through the Xserve years - yeesh!) is that they, to this day, have no idea how to support the corporate world. The Xserve was the epitome of Apple trying to fake it into the IT world, and they failed. Miserably.

 

[jakey rolling]

$2000 CAD is $1450 USD so you’re talking about different currencies. In Canada, that MacBook is $1450 US dollars, which is a far cry from 3200.

Apple has specific Canadian pricing, and it is usually a few percentage points above what their US pricing is (for example, the absolute base MBP right now is $2099 CAD).

Having said that, I think iHH is talking taxes which is kind of a weird way to compare prices, since you'd have to pay the same tax rate no matter what make/model computer you purchase.

 

[jakey rolling]

And yes, in normal countries people always add the tax when they talk about the prices.

Canadian here. Not sure what "normal country" you are talking about, but when comparing prices, we always do so using pre-tax amounts. Taxes would apply equally in your province or state regardless of what product you buy, but it would be variable between different provinces or states. It really makes no sense to compare after-tax amounts in this context.

 

[Contact_Feanor]

But I am talking that Apple should support macOS for longer time, especially when it comes to the security updates.

Based on my personal experiences I disagree. Both hardware lasts for a long time.

I see Intel Macs on allegro with the same price as PCs from that era.

Oh, you sure do. Microsoft even shows you how to install Windows 11 on “unsupported” Windows PCs, but Apple doesn't. That's the difference. Apple just deliberately obsoletes the older hardware, just to keep on selling newer hardware. You know that quite well. The regulating bodies also know that, so one day there would be tough fines for that deliberate obsoleting, at least in the countries, where those regulating bodies are consumer-friendly.

In fact, Ars Technica has suggested that one of the main reason Apple doesn't support older systems is that Intel simply no longer patches the CPU's, so even if apple were to give software support, the chips themselves would be a vulnerability, and software support would give people a false sense of security that is simply no longer there.

 

[Ethosik]

I'm not sure if you intended to be factitious with that example or if you're actually being serious.

It’s $2,500 but only has 8GB of RAM and 256GB SSD! But yes let’s just say Apple is the only one that sells computers with those specs.

It’s one example out of dozens. It’s an industry problem not an Apple problem.

 

[panjandrum]

The OP is, unfortunately, largely correct, and that's completely Apple's fault. A large part of the current problem is Apple's "rapid release strategy" of full OS revisions; a policy which is fundamentally unnecessary and is detrimental to end-users. The Apple hardware often outlives typical PC hardware; sometimes 2 or even 3 times over (there is plenty of great PC hardware out there, but it is costly.) In EDU we are now seeing Apple laptops surviving just fine for over a decade - in terms of the hardware. Unfortunately Apple's annual full OS revision, plus their continual abandonment of older hardware, means that their older systems are being aged-out artificially. Once the OS support is dropped for a model the snowball effect kicks in and we see only about 2 more years of usability, as mission-critical software also abandons the older OS. Hence Apple's forced obsolescence becomes self-fulfilling. OCLP can be used to some extent, but the fact that we need it just proves the point. Because the PC world largely considers backwards compatibility to be of key import, it is certainly likely that well-built PCs will functionally outlive their Apple counterparts; the hardware will simply be supported considerably longer by the current or single-prior (major) revision of Windows, and thus the software that depends on that OS will continue functioning longer, thus the computer is functionally useful longer, despite the fact that the Apple hardware is almost certainly superior when it comes to longevity.

 

[ignatius345]

At my work we have no choice but to dispose of perfectly working Macs when they will no longer receive security updates. These days we do have quite a few Windows machines outliving Macs. Most are 6-8th gen Intel Core powered although some will have to be retired next year once Windows 10 goes out of support. Otherwise, most still run great with an SSD and a reasonable amount of memory for their task.

I had an older relative using a MacBook Air that was I think about 10 years old. It worked perfectly well, had only like five battery cycles on it because she never unplugged it. I finally made her get an M2 Air just so she'd have current security updates.

 

[ignatius345]

The OP is, unfortunately, largely correct, and that's completely Apple's fault. A large part of the current problem is Apple's "rapid release strategy" of full OS revisions; a policy which is fundamentally unnecessary and is detrimental to end-users. The Apple hardware often outlives typical PC hardware; sometimes 2 or even 3 times over (there is plenty of great PC hardware out there, but it is costly.) In EDU we are now seeing Apple laptops surviving just fine for over a decade - in terms of the hardware. Unfortunately Apple's annual full OS revision, plus their continual abandonment of older hardware, means that their older systems are being aged-out artificially. Once the OS support is dropped for a model the snowball effect kicks in and we see only about 2 more years of usability, as mission-critical software also abandons the older OS. Hence Apple's forced obsolescence becomes self-fulfilling. OCLP can be used to some extent, but the fact that we need it just proves the point. Because the PC world largely considers backwards compatibility to be of key import, it is certainly likely that well-built PCs will functionally outlive their Apple counterparts; the hardware will simply be supported considerably longer by the current or single-prior (major) revision of Windows, and thus the software that depends on that OS will continue functioning longer, thus the computer is functionally useful longer, despite the fact that the Apple hardware is almost certainly superior when it comes to longevity.

This is exactly it. This practice is not really consistent with their greenwashing at all as it pushes perfectly usable devices into obsolescence. If they offered security-only updates for, say, years 5 to 10 it would really keep a lot of older Macs in service. This would also give a boost to the secondary market and lift resale prices in general.

 

[chmania]

In fact, Ars Technica has suggested that one of the main reason Apple doesn't support older systems is that Intel simply no longer patches the CPU's, so even if apple were to give software support, the chips themselves would be a vulnerability, and software support would give people a false sense of security that is simply no longer there.

Just because Apple says M chips are better, they are still ARM chips, so who knows when Apple will comeback to Intel and AMD. None of the hundreds (or thousands) of "Windows" PC manufacturers had not dropped Intel or AMD. Microsoft has Qualcomm playing only with them, so there's nowhere turn to, if some chance the M chips flop...or China takes over Taiwan.

 

[chmania]

I had an older relative using a MacBook Air that was I think about 10 years old. It worked perfectly well, had only like five battery cycles on it because she never unplugged it. I finally made her get an M2 Air just so she'd have current security updates.

Can you exactly tell us what are those "security" updates? Or, is it just talk to make people wonder?

 

[PowerMac5500]

I've got a Pentium II tower that would differ with you. Of course, just like my iMac G4, the only thing it really does is play a few old games now. Though the iMac does make a nifty virtual fish aquarium.

It's handy to have a machine with old-school firewire connection, and iMovieDV for importing old DV Cam footage.