PCs last longer than Macs

[varezhka]

Once again, I don't understand why people are against more software support.

Sure, and I’d love a free cake and ice cream to go with it too.
Because that cost will have to come from somewhere, whether just an extended security update for older OS versions or full support for the latest macOS. And as someone in the industry I can tell you it’s not cheap. It’s not like you can spend just few millions and get an additional year of support.

So, say goodbye to your cheap $600 mac Mini and $1000 MacBook Air. And I’d rather Mac stay at the current affordable price.

 

[iHorseHead]

Sure, and I’d love a free cake and ice cream to go with it too.
Because that cost will have to come from somewhere, whether just an extended security update for older OS versions or full support for the latest macOS. And as someone in the industry I can tell you it’s not cheap. It’s not like you can spend just few millions and get an additional year of support.

So, say goodbye to your cheap $600 mac Mini and $1000 MacBook Air. And I’d rather Mac stay at the current affordable price.

Windows and Linux can do it, and the richest tech company in the world can't? Okay then. Okay.
OpenCoreLegacy can support older Macs and Apple can't? Okay, Apple should hire better engineers then. Right? Apple products are overpriced anyway, so… You basically pay for the logo. It's always been this way and always will be. even back when they charged $129 for the OS.

Also, Mac mini doesn't cost $600, it's way more and for that money you can get a better PC with more RAM and more support. Also MacBook Air isn't $1000. It's more. Let's include taxes as well and in no way it's cheap for the most world or affordable. $1000 for 8GB of ram is too much. It's like ripping people off.

Apple also doesn't support many spoken languages that Android and Windows do etc… It's funny how you just come up with excuses. I'd rather have Apple to support their computers for longer. It's not normal that the iPhone from 2018 is supported and MacBook Air from the same year isn't.

 

[chmania]

Apple adopted the AI crazy kinda late and users who bought into the entire price tiers are the ones who will end up paying. IF they want to use these AI features.

If you want AI in Safari, all you need to do is to add the Copilot tab to favourites. No need for any Apple Intelligence. Apple is just playing catching up. Even Deepin Linux has AI...

 

[MacCheetah3]

Apple and functioning hardware? That's a good joke 🤣🤣
I've had so many issues with MacBooks throughout the years. From WiFi randomly dropping to Macs just crashing while sitting on the desktop. A computer is a computer. My M1 still crashes from time to time. Also, Safari doesn't work properly on many websites, such as Reddit etc. Let's stop pretending that Apple is perfect. It's not.

Well, if a user says that their PCs keep breaking then I assume it's their fault. It sounds like.

Sounds like a user mistake. My IT teacher always said that the mistake is always between the screen and the chair.

And less we forget:

How to Install Windows 11 Without a Microsoft Account

Maintain only a local account on your Windows 11 PC.

www.tomshardware.com

Windows 11 22H2 Enterprise no option for local account? - Microsoft Q&A

Why?? I download the new Enterprise Edition for Windows 11 22h2 from the volume license center and there is no option to create a local account during the install? I am trying to create images for PC's that will be domain joined why do you force things…

learn.microsoft.com

AI generative explanation:

Windows 11 version 22H2 has been reported to require a Microsoft account for installation, which has raised concerns among users. This change affects both Home and Pro editions, although Enterprise edition remains unaffected.
Why is this change being made?
The exact reason for this change is not explicitly stated, but it is believed to be a move by Microsoft to strengthen its account linking and data collection capabilities. This change may also be intended to simplify the installation process and improve user experience.
How to bypass the Microsoft account requirement
There are a few methods to bypass the Microsoft account requirement during Windows 11 22H2 installation:

1. Use Rufus: Rufus is a popular tool that allows you to create a bootable USB drive for Windows installation. Rufus 3.19 and later versions have a feature that enables you to bypass the Microsoft account mandate during setup.
2. Create a local account: During the installation process, you can create a local account instead of a Microsoft account. This method works for Windows 11 Pro edition, but not for Home edition.
3. Use a bogus email address: You can use a bogus email address during the installation process, which will allow you to set up a local account.

Limitations and concerns
While it is possible to bypass the Microsoft account requirement, there are some limitations and concerns to consider:

• Data collection: Microsoft may still collect data from your device, even if you create a local account.
• Account linking: Your device may still be linked to your Microsoft account, even if you don’t use it for login.
• Future updates: It is unclear whether future updates will still require a Microsoft account for installation.

Conclusion
Windows 11 version 22H2’s requirement for a Microsoft account during installation has raised concerns among users. While there are methods to bypass this requirement, it is essential to understand the limitations and potential implications of these methods.

 

[RSB96]

A current laptop is not upgradeable and cannot have its parts replaced (at least in the most common and generally sold models).

MacBooks have never been very upgradeable, especially since the advent of integrated boards and now with ARM even less so. Something similar happens in PCs (and will happen).

In my experience, my MacBooks have lasted much longer than my PCs. On average at 4/5 years, my PCs started to suffer from hardware failures (either aesthetic, like the hinge, or internal), while my 2010 MacBook lasted almost 7 years until the motherboard died and my 2013 iMac is still working perfectly (replacing the HDD with an SSD and upgrading the RAM) at my in-laws' house.

 

[chmania]

The thing is, there's only one manufacturer for Apple products, while there are hundreds of manufacturers for Windows laptops, PCs, tablets, 2 in 1s etc. Practically all governments in the world use Windows, except maybe China and Russia. And, practically all business, even in China and Russia. Even, if some business use MacBooks, or iPads, it is still MS Office.

 

[iHorseHead]

The thing is, there's only one manufacturer for Apple products, while there are hundreds of manufacturers for Windows laptops, PCs, tablets, 2 in 1s etc. Practically all governments in the world use Windows, except maybe China and Russia. And, practically all business, even in China and Russia. Even, if some business use MacBooks, or iPads, it is still MS Office.

I agree, but I want you to know that even China uses Windows.

https://blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2017/05/23/announcing-windows-10-china-government-edition-new-surface-pro/

There's now even Windows 11 China government edition.
Russians can't use Windows anymore though. You can't download Windows 10 or 11 legally in Russia anymore and it's true that most businesses use Windows and most users even want Windows. Some companies give people a choice and nobody wants a Mac. (At least in Northern Europe).

 

[salamanderjuice]

A current laptop is not upgradeable and cannot have its parts replaced (at least in the most common and generally sold models).

MacBooks have never been very upgradeable, especially since the advent of integrated boards and now with ARM even less so. Something similar happens in PCs (and will happen).

In my experience, my MacBooks have lasted much longer than my PCs. On average at 4/5 years, my PCs started to suffer from hardware failures (either aesthetic, like the hinge, or internal), while my 2010 MacBook lasted almost 7 years until the motherboard died and my 2013 iMac is still working perfectly (replacing the HDD with an SSD and upgrading the RAM) at my in-laws' house.

This isn't true. Most PC laptops have M.2 socketed storage which can be upgraded (even the new ARM PCs). Usually the WiFi card is too and it's really not hard to find laptops with RAM slots if you care enough. CAMM memory allowing for socketed LPDDR and less height might also mean we'll see the return of upgradable RAM in most models. PC laptops are generally pretty repairable too with parts like the keyboard being actually replaceable without ridiculous effort like modern Macbooks.

I've had PCs last much longer than 7 years. I have a 13 year old Thinkpad that's fine and runs reasonably well with upgraded RAM and an SSD.

 

[MilaM]

while my 2010 MacBook lasted almost 7 years until the motherboard died and my 2013 iMac is still working perfectly (replacing the HDD with an SSD and upgrading the RAM) at my in-laws' house.

Apple has also produced the worst blunders in computer design. Remember the broken display ribbon cable and the butterfly keyboard? I had one of those. Apple replaced the keyboard, but did not bother to compensate me for the badly designed display cable. It was my worst purchase in a long time.

 

[tny]

Vaio from 2008 running Windows 11, thus getting more security updates, is more usable than any Mac from 2008. The PC my father built in 2003 is way more usable than a Mac from 2003.

Special cases. Some VAIOs are long-lasting machines, and you can really spec up a home build. That said, from what I remember, Windows 11 requires an 8th generation Intel Core processor, and those were released in 2016; so it sounds like someone is running an unsupported rig? Perhaps it is explained in the video; I couldn't be bothered to watch it.

 

[applepotato666]

Except the fragile screen on M2/M1 (not sure about M3) and the appalling lack of any spill protection make sure that a good part of that residual value is eaten up by AppleCare payments.

I've dropped my M1 down stairs, I slam the screen closed and open it up with a swing. It lives caseless in my tote bag full of dust and coins. What makes the screen fragile is the tolerance between it and the keyboard. If you make sure you are not closing it with something on the keyboard, it won't crack, but that's been true for every MacBook ever. Maybe it's a certain batch with build issues but I don't know anyone with a cracked screen on the 2020 ones, and I know a whole lot of people with the M1 Air specifically who treat theirs about the same as me.

 

[neuropsychguy]

Does the average PC last longer than the average Mac (e.g., receiving security updates) or do you mean still functioning PCs last longer than still functioning Macs? Or do PCs that are similarly priced to Macs last longer than Macs do? Or, are you limiting your sample to ones that are still functioning? Those are all different samples.

 

[Ctrlos]

So the summary from the thread is that computers last a long time? 😅

Mac, PC: there is anecdotal evidence for every point of view, from immortal companion to piece of crap.

As a proof of concept it’s impressive that a 2008 laptop can run a modern OS. Would you actively seek out a 2008 laptop in 2024?

Probably not due to the weight of the thing and the fact that any modern website is going to eat all the RAM and slow it to a crawl. If you want a writing machine this is a good way of avoiding online procrastination!

Personally though if I wanted a cheap device to teach my kids the basics of actual computing you’re better off getting a Raspberry Pi which is capable of all sorts of stuff.

 

[chmania]

Russians can't use Windows anymore though. You can't download Windows 10 or 11 legally in Russia anymore and it's true that most businesses use Windows and most users even want Windows.

Russians can.

Some companies give people a choice and nobody wants a Mac. (At least in Northern Europe).

That's because of MS Word, Excel and Power Point. And, some others because of AutoCad, ArchiCad etc. What I can't understand is why such a rich company like Apple can't maintain a single macOS. I suspect Apple doesn't want to, as money would stream in from those who have been captured with eye-candy. Linux had already completely moved to Wayland, while macOS still hangs around X11.

 

[chmania]

I've dropped my M1 down stairs, I slam the screen closed and open it up with a swing. It lives caseless in my tote bag full of dust and coins. What makes the screen fragile is the tolerance between it and the keyboard. If you make sure you are not closing it with something on the keyboard, it won't crack, but that's been true for every MacBook ever.

But drop a pen or a coin on a closed MacBook by chance, you'd have a dent on the surface.

Maybe it's a certain batch with build issues...

It shouldn't, should it? What about quality control? Or, only just profit?

 

[iHorseHead]

So the summary from the thread is that computers last a long time? 😅

Pretty much. You don't need to upgrade that often nowadays and there's no reason to drop the support as fast as Apple does. I wonder for how long M1 MBA will be supported? They're still selling it (even Apple officially sells it I think(?)). It's scary that MBA 2020 is already on the latest supported macOS on MacBook Air.

 

[RSB96]

Apple has also produced the worst blunders in computer design. Remember the broken display ribbon cable and the butterfly keyboard? I had one of those. Apple replaced the keyboard, but did not bother to compensate me for the badly designed display cable. It was my worst purchase in a long time.

Yeah, I traded in my 2010 MacBook Pro for a 2018, if I remember correctly and returned it and bought an iPad Pro.

I had problems with performance and with the keyboard. The screen didn't give time to break, but it happened to my dad with his 2017 as well.

 

[chmania]

Pretty much. You don't need to upgrade that often nowadays and there's no reason to drop the support as fast as Apple does. I wonder for how long M1 MBA will be supported? They're still selling it (even Apple officially sells it I think(?)). It's scary that MBA 2020 is already on the latest supported macOS on MacBook Air.

Well, M1 was an experiment, and the buyers too were. Apple doesn't sell them anymore, but some of the retailers still do, warehouse stock. The M2 came out too fast, and then the M3 too. There are some selling unopened M3 MBAs at much cheaper prices these days. There must be a lot of unsold warehouse stock even though Apple supposed to have sold millions.

 

[Contact_Feanor]

Vaio from 2008 running Windows 11, thus getting more security updates, is more usable than any Mac from 2008. The PC my father built in 2003 is way more usable than a Mac from 2003.
What he says at the end is true. I'd rather have an upgradable Mac, Apple provide at least 5 years of security updates to each OS than a "faster" RAM and SSD.
Lately I've been thinking moving back to PC and Android in the future. I don't know. Apple has lost its charm and especially with iOS 18, considering my Huawei from 2011 was able to do the same things as iOS 18 when it comes to customisation. It even had a dark theme.
I don't know. Lately I feel like Apple products are not worth it anymore. Especially since new iPhones are one year behind of Pro models. Apple is behaving like Samsung lately. The same goes for Macs. I've just lost it. I remember back in 2007-18 I used to love Apple so much and the Keynotes etc, but now I've looked around and realised that PCs are better than Macs and more secure. The pricing is better as well.Nothing still beats the iPad though.

The funny thing is, you can still run windows 11 on several Macs from 2008, negating your point completely.
Besides that, on average, Macs have a longer lifespan than pc's hardware wise (according to several statistics, some of which come from IBM). For example techgearoid mentions the average life expectancy of Macs to be between 5 and 8 years, for pc's between 3 and 5 years. Of course you can find outliers, but it's the average that counts.
On top of that, the resale value is way higher for old Macs than old pc's. The point you're trying to make just isn't there.

 

[iHorseHead]

The funny thing is, you can still run windows 11 on several Macs from 2008, negating your point completely.

But I am talking that Apple should support macOS for longer time, especially when it comes to the security updates.

Besides that, on average, Macs have a longer lifespan than pc's hardware wise

Based on my personal experiences I disagree. Both hardware lasts for a long time.

On top of that, the resale value is way higher for old Macs than old pc's

I see Intel Macs on allegro with the same price as PCs from that era.

 

[basdeninard]

Apple Discussions is usually trash, across the board. Every question is pounced on by some clueless "expert" who offers only generic troubleshooting advice. One is much better off here, usually, or maybe on AskDifferent or Reddit.

The real problem is that Google keeps suggesting Apple Discussions in search results. Someone at Google needs to blacklist the site from search results. It's totally useless.

 

[Ethosik]

Oh, you sure do. Microsoft even shows you how to install Windows 11 on “unsupported” Windows PCs, but Apple doesn't. That's the difference. Apple just deliberately obsoletes the older hardware, just to keep on selling newer hardware. You know that quite well. The regulating bodies also know that, so one day there would be tough fines for that deliberate obsoleting, at least in the countries, where those regulating bodies are consumer-friendly.

No they don’t. I have called Microsoft support on such occasions and once they knew the hardware they just said sorry that’s not officially supported. It’s a reason why you need to hack around the limitations. Apple similarly doesn’t want to pay support staff for Sonoma issues with a 2008 system. And an official forum posting on their site causes issues.

 

[Ethosik]

View attachment 2395104
In CA it'd still be nearly $2000. Include the tax like the rest of the world. The world doesn't revolve around the US only and it's even more expensive in some other states let alone other countries.

I never understand why Apple is the sole target for this. It’s an industry problem. You can find dozens of examples but here is one:

Dell Latitude 13 Inch 7330 Rugged Laptop | Dell USA

13" rugged laptop with enhanced battery life, 5G connection, up to Intel® Core™ i7 processors andtouch-responsive, 1400-nit sunlight viewable screen.

www.dell.com

 

[chmania]

I have called Microsoft support on such occasions and once they knew the hardware they just said sorry that’s not officially supported.

Have a look here to find out how MS itself shows how to install Windows 11 on unsupported PCs. MS, of course, doesn't recommend it, but shows how to. Do you think Apple gives you a link to such Apple's own Support, or to OCLP?

 

[Ethosik]

Have a look here to find out how MS itself shows how to install Windows 11 on unsupported PCs. MS, of course, doesn't recommend it, but shows how to. Do you think Apple gives you a link to such Apple's own Support, or to OCLP?

They literally state you get no support and your system can malfunction. Personally Microsoft should be doing this.

To quote from the page you linked. There you go. Boom last sentence. Don’t t expect security updates on your 2008 system forever.

Installing Windows 11 on a device that does not meet Windows 11 minimum system requirements is not recommended. If you choose to install Windows 11 on ineligible hardware, you should be comfortable assuming the risk of running into compatibility issues.

Your device might malfunction due to these compatibility or other issues. Devices that do not meet these system requirements will no longer be guaranteed to receive updates, including but not limited to security updates