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Now that two of our mods are back, it's time to look forward.

There's been a good deal of bad will built up, and the mods are not going to have an easy time of it. The new CoC will have some very controversial items in it, and the mods will have to make a choice at that point.

Personally, I don't know if I can follow the new rules as written due to some personal issues I have with COMPELLED speech. On a personal level, I'll call you whatever you like, I don't have a problem with that. It's the fact that the speech is compelled, and that you don't have an option to even avoid the subject.

Furthermore, as we have seen with the actions taken towards Monica, this has already obliterated the "Assume good intentions" rule, and the things posted about her, and allowed to stand tells me that the "Be nice" rule is pretty much dead as well.

Beyond that, the new CoC is divisive, as it sets up a very nasty "us" vs "them" mentality, where no transgression or deviation from the orthodoxy is allowed. Again, the treatment of Monica demonstrates that. It can, and will be weaponized to get rid of people or be selectively enforced against some.

It also will invite trolling through feigned outrage which will become indistinguishable from real grievances. All one would need to do is post one's pronouns in their profile, wait until someone gets it wrong, and report them. Trolls love using strict rules to drive sites into administrative overload.

I do not envy our mods in the upcoming months, nor the choices they will have to make. I appreciate the fact that we have had two come back. In the end, I hope they can affect the change they wish to see, and that greater SE listens to them.

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    I'm looking forwards... all pretty murky... on the bright side... it's just the internet :-)
    – Kilisi Mod
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 0:18
  • the new CoC is divisive It hasn't even been released yet (I think)? There's still so much information missing from the new CoC, isn't it soon to declare war on it?
    – IEatBagels
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 19:25
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    @IEatBagels well, it doesn't exist yet but they still enforced it? Or so they say; I still don't see the violation. So I guess it's lurking out there somewhere, ready to bite us. Or maybe they'll fix it -- who knows?
    – Monica Cellio
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 19:34
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    @IEatBagels The wars already been declared and we have our first casualty. If forced newspeak and conviction of future crine isn't dystopic, what is?
    – Old_Lamplighter
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 19:40
  • @MonicaCellio While I don't agree with how you were treated, we never got (and probably never will get) the full information regarding this conflict. Firing at the CoC when it hasn't been released is throwing oil on an already burning fire.
    – IEatBagels
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 19:40
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    I'm not firing at the CoC; I'm just cautioning people that a policy that hasn't been published yet is nonetheless being applied to people.
    – Monica Cellio
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 19:42
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    @IEatBagels There's an old Navajo story about someone who spread rumors about someone, then later regretted it. The shaman told her that to undo what she did, she would have to dump a bag of feathers on the trail in at sunrise, then gather them all at sunset. She did as she told, but could not find all of those feathers and looked will into the dark night trying to find them. She then went back to the shaman and told him that she could not find all the feathers. "Nor can you make up for the words you have spoken, like the feathers, they are in the wind, you will never get them back".
    – Old_Lamplighter
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 19:48
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    @IEatBagels Monica has already been wronged, and libeled by this policy. Even if they reverse course, change the policy, and reinstate her, she will never get back those words that were said about her. That is just plain wrong.
    – Old_Lamplighter
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 19:50

3 Answers 3

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I agree with the learned Mister Positive.

Please don’t try to jump at snakes until you actually see them.

We’ve seen readily how much damage assumption has made. Making more assumptions and creating problems that don’t yet exist can only serve to make things worse.

Please, react against what you know, when you know it. Until then, nothing has changed.

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    Well, I'm more forecasting than reacting. You sure got their attention, that's for sure, and that does give me some hope, which is why I am still here. Regardless, you've got a tough job ahead.
    – Old_Lamplighter
    Commented Oct 7, 2019 at 18:44
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I definitely see where your coming from, but I urge you to hang on a bit longer before passing judgement as I don't believe the story is finished just yet.

The updated code of conduct has not been officially released and I know that the powers at be are at least listening to suggestions from the moderation team.

Let's give SE\SO the chance to get it right, or as close to right as it can be. We are after all, human.

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    that's why I'm still here. it took guts from you and snow to reverse course. Glad I voted for both of you
    – Old_Lamplighter
    Commented Oct 7, 2019 at 16:47
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    Anything you can do to get them to allow people to disengage would be much appreciated. There are users on SE who are bullies, antisemites, and trolls, and I need to be able to protect myself by walking away. Whether that's ok should not depend on the gender of the person involved; the assumption that I'm doing it because of that does not assume good intent.
    – Monica Cellio
    Commented Oct 7, 2019 at 19:05
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    In my view it’s worse than forced speech, it’s forced advocacy. I strongly believe that adding more pronouns to the language is a bad solution to the problem of society viewing gender as discrete instead of a continuum. I won’t actively oppose this (in my opinion) wrong approach, but I shouldn’t be forced to use invented gendered language which helps adoption of it. I feel strongly that English needs to evolve beyond that. Labels damage our thinking, even when we like those labels and apply them to ourselves.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Oct 7, 2019 at 19:20
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    @ColleenV yes, this is an Orwellian dystopia in the making. If you cannot say what you mean, you cannot mean what you say. I can see this causing a problem with devout Muslims, Christians, orthodox Jews, and people on the spectrum, the former 3 having deep religious objections, and the former because we autists can have a real problem with words that don't express what they mean. I'm amazed at how times have changed, honestly.
    – Old_Lamplighter
    Commented Oct 7, 2019 at 20:42
  • Has any of the mods seen the second draft of the CoC? It's 23.00 Italy time but 17.00 in New York.
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Oct 7, 2019 at 21:08
  • @Mari-LouA The work day just ended on the East coast - there's still a few more hours to go on the West. I'm still not sure how they're going to release it to us, but so far I haven't seen anything.
    – ColleenV
    Commented Oct 7, 2019 at 21:30
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    @MonicaCellio yes, there are bullies in SE. It's never fun when you are made to be the villain when you've done nothing wrong. Believe me, I know. Worse, is once that characterization of a person is made, it's on the net forever, and the accusations will always come up in a search. They owe you an official retraction, not just quiet back-peddling
    – Old_Lamplighter
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 2:17
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Just as I have for years, I plan to see how this community evolves and act accordingly. When it no longer meets my needs, I'll leave.

Other than what happened to Monica, I haven't seen anything change at all. I haven't seen any Orwellian dystopia, pronoun wars, compelled speech, forced advocacy, changes in trolling behavior, etc. Maybe I've missed it. Maybe these are only potential changes. Maybe those changes will occur, maybe not.

To be honest, I don't even know if I've actually read the current CoC, and I know little about the coming CoC. If this proposed/potential/future CoC changes things , I'll re-evaluate. And if the community becomes something that I no longer enjoy, I won't be a part of it.

Until then, I carry on.

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  • I'm sorry, could I borrow a cup of optimism, I seem to be running low. In all seriousness though, this is a good attitude to have, sir.
    – Old_Lamplighter
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 12:36
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    @RichardU - LOL! Nobody who knows me would call me an optimist. I have always considered myself a realist. I try not to react to a situation until the facts are in.
    – Joe Strazzere
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 12:40
  • Well Joe, maybe it's my background then. If that's the case, I'd like to take a good look at your reality and see if I can bring mine to bear, as mine is about as much as I can.
    – Old_Lamplighter
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 13:13
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    @RichardU - we each have our own background to carry around in our life, our own burdens, our own scars.
    – Joe Strazzere
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 13:18
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    Well, I think it goes without saying that you are fairly well admired around here, and too humble to understand why. I honestly wish I had your temperate nature.
    – Old_Lamplighter
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 13:23
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    Well said Joe....
    – Kilisi Mod
    Commented Oct 9, 2019 at 10:06
  • 1
    +1 This pretty much sums up what I feel.
    – camden_kid
    Commented Oct 10, 2019 at 8:45
  • Way more things have changed. Like on Sep 5, when SE announced without prior discussion that the content license was being retroactively changed. Like removal of Hot Meta Posts from SO's side bar. Like arbitration by default while failing to deliver the promised secure mechanism for opting out. What happened to Monica was not the cause of the recent resignments, it was the spark which finally ignited all those many things which have also been changing for the worse.
    – Anonymous Coward
    Commented Oct 10, 2019 at 14:07
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    @JoseAntonioDuraOlmos - I'm sure lots of things behind the scenes have changed. I have noticed exactly none of those.
    – Joe Strazzere
    Commented Oct 10, 2019 at 14:27
  • @JoeStrazzere All those changes I mentioned have happened in public, not behind the scenes and are easy to find in this meta site.
    – Anonymous Coward
    Commented Oct 10, 2019 at 14:29
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    @JoseAntonioDuraOlmos - you are missing my point. I don't care at all about this Meta site. I don't care at all about Hot Meta Posts in a side bar. I don't care about the prior or current content license. I would bet that most folks on the main site feel the same way. I do care about Monica and the other current and former moderators. Mostly I care about helping others when I can - if something changes that interferes with than, then I may re-evaluate things.
    – Joe Strazzere
    Commented Oct 10, 2019 at 14:33
  • @JoeStrazzere You are right, I was missing your point. Now I understand what you meant in your answer. Something of what you've put in comments answering me could be added to such answer so that it is easier to get your point.
    – Anonymous Coward
    Commented Oct 10, 2019 at 14:39

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