Do sleeping or otherwise helpless targets get Reflex saves?

Question

According to the 3.5 PHB (p. 309), a helpless (e.g., sleeping) target is treated as having Dex 0, and has a "-5 modifier". On p. 153, it further explains that a helpless defender can't use any Dexterity bonus "to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were -5." (Emphasis added.) It also states that a coup de grace automatically hits and does critical damage.

What I can't seem to find is any discussion of whether a sleeping or otherwise helpless target gets a Reflex saving throw. I'm particularly interested in whether a helpless target gets a Reflex save vs. dragon breath weapons.

It seems to me that a helpless, particularly sleeping, target won't even know it's under attack, and thus won't be able to "escape by moving quickly" when dragon breath, a spell attack or the like comes at it.

How do the rules deal with this situation? If they don't address it, how can it best be resolved?

Answer 1

This is not strictly RAW, but it is from an article called Rules of the Game: Actions (Part Two) by Skip Williams on the WotC website.

It's usually best to allow... opposed checks to resist being tripped or grappled, unless they're helpless (any ability score reduced to 0, paralyzed, petrified, or unconscious). It's worth noting, however, that even a helpless character can make a Reflex save (albeit with a -5 penalty for an effective Dexterity score of 0). That's because the game generally favors at least some involvement from the player -- and a chance for a miraculous escape -- whenever a character is in danger.

So Jonathan Drain's comment is dead on. The saving throw doesn't map directly to dodging out of the way, it's a metagame mechanic. A good way to think of it is that the "reflex" part of the save is best used after the roll to narrate how the character avoided death.

Answer 2

D&D3.x did try to standardise and clarify a lot of things, but it was still built on a foundation that assumed humans would be applying the rules with common sense, and with sensitivity to the needs of the fictional situations that could not be predicted by the rules.

You could just give them the Reflex save, and you'd be following the literal rules. That's one option.

Your instinct that common sense says otherwise is good though. They can't move out of the way, so giving them the Reflex save doesn't agree with common sense. Just denying it when it seems to not apply is a fine option that agrees with the spirit of the rules.

However, Jonathan Drain is right: a Reflex save is usually used to stand in for more than just physical dexterity. It often serves as a stand-in for luck, for circumstantial advantages of terrain not directly modelled by explicit declarations, for the variations in an effect that covers an area, and so on. Ignoring this unspoken meaning of Reflex saves for the sake of common sense wouldn't be entirely accord with good sense either.

The best option then, is to make a judgement call and decide what does need to be settled by the dice, and roll that. Only you will be able to judge the exact details of the precise situations that come up in your game, but some simplified examples will round out this answer:

• Sleeping in a tight circle around a campfire, and hit by a fireball? They're all in trouble, no save.
• Caught in the AoE of a blast of dragon fire directed at someone else while sleeping? Maybe they get lucky: roll a d20, high for half damage, low for full damage.

Trust your instincts as a DM: that's why you're there instead of a computer.

Answer 3

Yes they do get a reflex save but they do not get to use the Dex bonus (if any, penalties would still apply tho I suspect). A sleeping person is officially helpless for actual effects that apply, etc.

This thread discusses the issue somewhat.

Answer 4

Helpless targets do roll a Reflex save.

Saves are much like AC: numerical stats that measure your ability to avoid being affected by the environment. The main difference between saves and AC is that the latter is a static number whilst saves must be rolled, but mechanically they both affect the outcome of a d20 roll.

A helpless target is entitled to use his AC (in order to circumvent this you have to take a coup de grace action, which is riskier and takes more time than a regular attack). So, a helpless character in the midst of a dragon's breath is entitled to use his Reflex bonus for half-damage (albeit applying a -5 Dex modifier instead of his usual one).

If you want to introduce a house rule, I'd suggest to extend the coup de grace action to those attacks that grant a save too. So, for example, a dragon may choose to coup de grace the helpless character with its breath weapon; doing so will take a full-round action, will provoke attacks of opportunity, will require the dragon to be adjacent to the target, but will result in an automatic failure of the required Reflex save.

Answer 5

The 3/.5 player's handbook, when talking about saves, specifically mentions you CANNOT take a reflexive save if you're flatfooted (reflex is the only save with this restriction), unless you have a class ability/feat that says otherwise. Sleeping or otherwise helpless creatures are flatfooted.