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In some texts (e.g. Taylor's Classical Mechanics), the generalized force is defined to be (I'll simplify to one particle in one dimension for ease of notation): $Q \equiv \frac{\partial{L}}{\partial{q}}$.

While other texts (e.g. Goldstein's Classical Mechanics) define the generalized force to be: $Q \equiv F\frac{\partial{x}}{\partial{q}}$.

These two definitions are equivalent if the kinetic energy is independent of generalized coordinates $q$, but this is not the case in general. Adopting the former definition makes sense because then Lagrange's equation can be written as: $\dot{p} = Q$, which maintains the form of Newton's Second Law, where $p$ is the generalized momentum. On the other hand the latter definition makes sense because then it is the case that: $dW = Q dq$, which maintains the form of the definition of work in the generalized coordinates.

Are one of these two definitions ``correct''? Nowhere can I find this distinction discussed in my available texts; if one adopts the latter definition (generalized force = $F\frac{\partial{x}}{\partial{q}}$), then what is $\frac{\partial{L}}{\partial{q}}$ called?

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  • $\begingroup$ “if the kinetic energy is independent of generalized coordinates q, but this is not the case in general” Why is this not the case in general? $\endgroup$
    – my2cts
    Commented Mar 1 at 21:13
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    $\begingroup$ Why wouldn't it? It's quite common for the kinetic term to have generalized positions in them, e.g. when the coordinates are rotating with respect to the cartesian coords, typically there will be a theta in there... $\endgroup$
    – user1247
    Commented Mar 1 at 21:32
  • $\begingroup$ This happens when pseudoforces occur. $\endgroup$
    – my2cts
    Commented Mar 2 at 17:00

1 Answer 1

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TL;DR: The settings/frameworks and the definitions of generalized force in Refs. 1 and 2 are different.

  1. Ref. 1 defines the generalized force as $$Q_j~:=~\frac{\partial L}{\partial q^j}\tag{7.15}$$ such that Euler-Lagrange (EL) equation looks like Newton's 2nd law: $\frac{dp_j}{dt}=Q_j$. This mostly$^1$ seems useful in the context of a stationary action principle (SAP), but possibly beyond point mechanics.

  2. Ref. 2 defines the generalized force as $$Q_j~:=~\sum_{i=1}^N{\bf F}_i\cdot \frac{\partial {\bf r}_i}{\partial q^j}.\tag{1.49}$$ We can then derive Lagrange equations from d'Alembert's principle. This makes sense in the context of point mechanics even without a SAP and even with non-conservative and semi-holonomic constraints.

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$^1$ In applications beyond a SAP, definition (1.49) appears naturally, so that it seems confusing to also introduce definition (7.15). For the record we note that Ref. 1 assumes a SAP.

References:

  1. J.R. Taylor, Classical Mechanics, 2005; eq. (7.15).

  2. H. Goldstein, Classical Mechanics; eq. (1.49).

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  • $\begingroup$ Can you expand on "only makes sense with a stationary action principle"? As far as I can tell, in both cases the Lagrange's equations are the same, and both can be derived from SAP or virtual work. It seems it's more a matter of definition "after the fact" and I guess conceptual interpretation. Maybe this is what you are getting at, but it's not clear. Is there a name for $\frac{\partial{L}}{\partial{q}}$? If one takes only one of the two definitions as generalized force, then in cases where the two are distinct, what is the interpretation of the other? $\endgroup$
    – user1247
    Commented Mar 2 at 15:13
  • $\begingroup$ @user1247 The 'SAP' portion means that in order to define the action $S$, we necessarily need the Lagrangian first. And that Lagrangian comes from the d'Alembert principle. In other words, Lagrangian equation of motion is the link between the d'Alembert principle and the SAP. $\endgroup$ Commented Mar 2 at 16:32
  • $\begingroup$ Right, but "such that we can derive Lagrange equations from d'Alembert's principle" doesn't make sense -- you don't need to define the generalized force in order to apply the principle of virtual work. It's the other way around: you apply virtual work to the ordinary force, then change to generalized coordinates, then define the term in front of `dq' to be the generalized force. You don't "need" any of the definitions being discussed here; they are just names being given to mathematical expressions. The question is what is the name for dL/dq, and what is its relation to F dx/dq? $\endgroup$
    – user1247
    Commented Mar 2 at 20:11

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