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Hello fellow physicists,

I was trying to understand some behavior on rotating objects, specifically about the formula $\vec{v} = \vec{\omega} \times \vec{r}$.

The Book (Marion, J. B. (1965). Classical Dynamics: Of Particles and Systems (pp. 40-41). Academic Press Inc.) explains it pretty well, starting from the equation:

$\delta \vec{r} = \delta \vec{ \theta} \times \vec{r} \tag{1}\;,$

then dividing by $\delta t$;

$\dfrac{\delta \vec{r}}{\delta t} = \dfrac{\delta \vec{ \theta}}{\delta t} \times \vec{r}$,

and then making $\lim_{\delta \to 0}$;

$\vec{v} = \vec{\omega} \times \vec{r}$

but I don't quite catch where that particular equation (1) came from. The Marion book (on page 40) states that the proof is on "Marion (Ma65a, Section 2.5)", but I cannot find where is that referring to...

So I was wondering if someone could help me on the matter.

(I'll add an image that could help visualize the situation:)

enter image description here

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5 Answers 5

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Let us actually discuss more generally, because your picture and argument are very limited to 3D (especially with the invocation of cross products), and make too much appeal to vague intuition (which I had great trouble ‘getting’ as a student).

The general setup for discussing a particle moving in $n$ dimensions $\Bbb{R}^n$, under pure rotation is that the particle starts off at some initial point $\mathbf{r}_0\in\Bbb{R}^n$, and its position at some later time $t$ is given by \begin{align} \mathbf{r}(t)=R(t)\cdot \mathbf{r}_0,\tag{$*$} \end{align} where $R(t)$ is an $n\times n$ rotation matrix, meaning it satisfies \begin{align} R(t)\cdot R(t)^{\top}=R(t)^{\top}R(t)=I\tag{$**$} \end{align} (and the extra condition of $\det R(t)=+1$, but let’s ignore this condition). The condition $(**)$ expresses that the matrix $R(t)$ when applied to any vector, keeps its length fixed (i.e $R(t)\cdot \xi$ and $\xi$ have the same length for all vectors $\xi$), and since the lengths stay the same, this means the ‘angles’ that $\xi$ and $R(t)\cdot \xi$ make must be the only difference, hence the name rotation matrix (actually reflections also preserve lengths, and that’s why there’s the extra condition of positive determinant). Also, we immediately read off that the inverse is the transpose: $R(t)^{-1}=R(t)^{\top}$.

Anyway, with that brief intro to rotation matrices out of the way, we can proceed very easily. Let us now find the velocity of the particle undergoing pure rotation, i.e we differentiate both sides of the equation $\mathbf{r}(t)=R(t)\cdot\mathbf{r}_0$ to get \begin{align} \dot{\mathbf{r}}(t)&=\dot{R}(t)\cdot\mathbf{r}_0\tag{$***$} \end{align} But now, we can rewrite out original equation $(*)$ as $\mathbf{r}_0=R(t)^{-1}\cdot \mathbf{r}(t)=R(t)^{\top}\cdot\mathbf{r}(t)$ (the inverse matrix is the transpose as mentioned above). So, plugging this into $(***)$, we get \begin{align} \dot{\mathbf{r}}(t)&=\dot{R}(t)R(t)^{\top}\cdot \mathbf{r}(t)\equiv \Omega(t)\cdot\mathbf{r}(t), \end{align} where we have defined $\Omega(t)=\dot{R}(t)R(t)^{\top}$. One very important feature of this matrix $\Omega(t)$ is that it is skew-symmetric. The way we see this is by differentiating both sides of $R(t)R(t)^{\top}=I$ in $(**)$. This implies by the product rule, $\dot{R}(t)R(t)^{\top}+R(t)\dot{R}(t)^{\top}=0$, i.e $\Omega(t)+\Omega(t)^{\top}=0$, which says exactly that $\Omega(t)$ is skew-symmetric.

Hence, we get our desired equation $\dot{\mathbf{r}}(t)=\Omega(t)\cdot\mathbf{r}(t)$, which says the velocity of the particle equals some skew-symmetric matrix multiplied by the position of the particle. Finally, in the special case of $n=3$ dimensions, skew-symmetry means we can write it as \begin{align} \Omega(t)&= \begin{pmatrix} 0&a(t)&b(t)\\ -a(t)&0& c(t)\\ -b(t)&-c(t)&0 \end{pmatrix}, \end{align} for some functions $a(t),b(t),c(t)$. However, at this stage, it is tradition to write $a(t)=-\omega_3(t), b(t)=\omega_2(t),c(t)=-\omega_1(t)$, so \begin{align} \Omega(t)&= \begin{pmatrix} 0&-\omega_3(t)&\omega_2(t)\\ \omega_3(t)&0& -\omega_1(t)\\ -\omega_2(t)&\omega_1(t)&0 \end{pmatrix}. \end{align} The reason for this funny tradition of naming is that if you now carry out the matrix multiplication for the case $n=3$ in $\dot{\mathbf{r}}(t)=\Omega(t)\cdot\mathbf{r}(t)$, then you get exactly the desired equation \begin{align} \dot{\mathbf{r}}(t)=\mathbf{\omega}(t)\times \mathbf{r}(t).\tag{@} \end{align}


Terminology:

  • $R(t)$ is sometimes called the development of the path $\mathbf{r}(t)$ in the rotation group.
  • $\Omega(t)$ is called the angular velocity matrix/operator.
  • In $n=3$ dimensions, $\omega(t)\in\Bbb{R}^3$ is called the angular velocity vector (associated with $R(t)$, or with $\Omega(t)$).

Edit:

To be super explicit, given this definition of $\Omega(t)$, we can define $\Theta(t)$ to be an anti-derivative (which is unique up to an additive constant determined by initial conditions (which we may WLOG set to $0$)). Then, by definition, we will have $\dot{\Theta}(t)=\Omega(t)$, and hence $\dot{\mathbf{r}}(t)=\dot{\Theta}(t)\cdot\mathbf{r}(t)$ ($\cdot$ is the multiplication between a matrix and a column vector).

In the case $n=3$, we can of course identify these skew-symmetric matrices with vectors as described above, so from $\omega(t)$, we get a primitive $\theta(t)$ (which to be super explicit, is NOT just the 3 Euler angles stuck together in a column vector) such that $\dot{\mathbf{r}}(t)=\dot{\theta}(t)\times\mathbf{r}(t)$.

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  • $\begingroup$ a boo, but $~\omega~$ is not $~\frac{d\theta}{dt}~$ so your result is not correct ? See my answer $\endgroup$
    – Eli
    Commented Nov 9, 2023 at 16:43
  • $\begingroup$ @Eli in your answer, the $\theta$’s are the Euler angles yes? So in that case, indeed it is not true that the angular velocity vector $\omega(t)$ is simply the derivatives of the Euler angles. This is consistent with everything we see in the usual textbook formulae as well (e.g Landau Lifshitz equation (35.1) on page 111) where the angular velocity is the time derivative of Euler angles multiplied by some sines and cosines. $\endgroup$
    – peek-a-boo
    Commented Nov 9, 2023 at 23:20
  • $\begingroup$ I just did the calculation quickly and if $\gamma(t)$ is a path of skew-symmetric matrices, and $f(z)$ denotes the entire function $\sum_{n=0}^{\infty}\frac{z^n}{(n+1)!}=\frac{e^z-1}{z}$, then for the rotations $R(t)=\exp(\gamma(t))$, we have that $\Omega(t)=\dot{R}(t)R(t)^{\top}=f([\gamma(t),\cdot])\cdot \dot{\gamma}(t)$, where $[\cdot,\cdot]$ denotes the commutator bracket. So indeed, if $\gamma(t)=0$ then we get $\Omega(t)=f(0)\cdot\dot{\gamma}(t)=I\cdot \dot{\gamma}(t)=\dot{\gamma}(t)$ (which is consistent with what you said regarding small angles). So, I don’t see any mistakes here. $\endgroup$
    – peek-a-boo
    Commented Nov 9, 2023 at 23:24
  • $\begingroup$ anyway, there are so many conventions for defining these angular quantities it gets confusing (especially with the body/space issue as well, for instance by swapping the roles of body and space, one gets angular velocity to be $R(t)^{\top}\cdot\dot{R}(t)$, perhaps up to a sign which I can’t remember… more abstractly, this corresponds to either the left/right Maurer-Cartan form of the Lie group in question which gives the body/space interpretation). $\endgroup$
    – peek-a-boo
    Commented Nov 9, 2023 at 23:30
  • $\begingroup$ Your equation is correct, but how you obtain this result ?$~\dfrac{\delta \vec{r}}{\delta t} = \dfrac{\delta \vec{ \theta}}{\delta t} \times \vec{r}$ this equation is only valid for small angels $\endgroup$
    – Eli
    Commented Nov 10, 2023 at 7:44
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The length of an arc that subtends an angle $\delta\theta$ is just $\text{arc length} =(\text{radius})(\delta\theta)$. This radius is the horizontal distance from the vertical axis in your picture which has unit direction $\delta \hat \theta$, and is given by $|r|\sin\phi$ where $\phi$ is the angle from the vertical axis to $\mathbf r$. This can be given by the cross product formula $|\delta\hat \theta\times\mathbf r| = |r||\sin\phi|$. The resulting direction of $\delta\hat\theta \times \mathbf r$ can be found using the right hand rule to point along $\delta \mathbf r$ so we have $\delta \mathbf r = (\delta\hat\theta\times\mathbf r)(\delta\theta) = \delta\vec\theta\times\mathbf r$.

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Suppose you have a vector $\vec{r}_0$ that is rotating counter clockwise with constant angular velocity $\vec{\omega}$. Our task is to determine the tangential velocity $\vec{v}$.

We can do this in the following way. Consider the infinitesimal difference $$d\vec{r} = R(dt, \vec{\omega})\cdot \vec{r}-\vec{r} \tag{1}$$ where $R(dt, \vec{\omega})$ is an infinitesimal rotation matrix around the $\vec{\omega}$ direction. We can rewrite $R(dt, \vec{\omega})$ as $$R(dt, \vec{\omega}) = e^{dt A} = 1 +dt A+\mathcal{O}(dt^2)$$ where $$A \equiv\begin{pmatrix} 0 & -\omega_3 & \omega_2 \\ \omega_3 & 0 & -\omega_1 \\ -\omega_2 & \omega_1 & 0 \end{pmatrix}. \tag{2}$$ Truncating the exponential series at first order, we obtain $$R(dt, \vec{\omega}) = 1 + dt A.$$ Hence, equation (1) becomes $$d\vec{r} = dt A\cdot\vec{r}.$$ We remark that we can rewrite $A \cdot \vec{r}$ as $\vec{\omega} \times \vec{r}$ (see the wikipedia page for alternate ways to compute the cross product).

Finally, dividing by $dt$, we obtain $$\vec{v} \equiv \frac{d\vec{r}}{dt} = \omega\times\vec{r}_0.$$

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  • $\begingroup$ This is pretty circular (no pun intended) presentation. You’re already assuming the correspondence between rotations and their infinitesimal generators as skew-symmetric matrices, then re-exponentiating and then differentiating it, so it is no surprise you get the right equation. For instance, where does $R(dt,\omega)=e^{dt A}$ come from (anyway, exponentiating takes more effort, and there are lots of technicalities to be addressed, one of which is the issue of surjectivity). $\endgroup$
    – peek-a-boo
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 8:08
  • $\begingroup$ I purposefully left out the Lie theoretic parts of the argument since I didn't assume the OP had an interest in it. I don't think it is circular if one knows the Lie theory of $SO(3)$. @peek-a-boo $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 8:53
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    $\begingroup$ Sure, its not circular if one knows the background (with an appropriate order of presentation), but indeed as you mention OP might not be interested in it/might not have the background for it. I definitely understand not including those details, but then that leaves too big a gap in the answer to fill in (which is difficult for anyone who doesn’t already know the answer). $\endgroup$
    – peek-a-boo
    Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 9:06
  • $\begingroup$ That's fair :) @peek-a-boo $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 8, 2023 at 18:30
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starting with

$$\mathbf r=\mathbf R\,\mathbf r_0\tag 1$$

the rotation matrix $~\mathbf R~$ is described with three Euler angles $~\theta_i(t)~$

for a small angles

$$\mathbf R\mapsto I+\left[ \begin {array}{ccc} 0&-\theta_{{3}}&\theta_{{2}} \\ \theta_{{3}}&0&-\theta_{{1}}\\ -\theta_{{2}}&\theta_{{1}}&0\end {array} \right] $$

from here

$$\frac{d\mathbf r}{dt}=\dot{\mathbf{R}}\,\mathbf r_0=\frac{d \mathbf\theta}{dt}\times \,\mathbf r_0$$

Notice

that $~\mathbf\omega = \frac{d \mathbf\theta}{dt}~$ only if the angles are small


edit

with $$\mathbf R(t)=\mathbf R_x(\varphi_1)\,\ \mathbf R_y(\varphi_2)\,\mathbf R_z(\varphi_3)$$

and $$\mathbf \theta=\left[ \begin {array}{c} \varphi _{{1}}\\ \varphi _ {{2}}\\ \varphi _{{3}}\end {array} \right]$$

the angular velocity is:

$$\mathbf \omega= \left[ \begin {array}{ccc} \cos \left( \varphi _{{2}} \right) \cos \left( \varphi _{{3}} \right) &\sin \left( \varphi _{{3}} \right) &0 \\ -\cos \left( \varphi _{{2}} \right) \sin \left( \varphi _{{3}} \right) &\cos \left( \varphi _{{3}} \right) &0 \\ \sin \left( \varphi _{{2}} \right) &0&1 \end {array} \right] \,\dot{\mathbf{\theta}}$$

hence

$$\mathbf\omega\ne\dot{\mathbf{\theta}}$$

for a small angles $~\sin(\varphi_i)=\varphi_i~,\cos(\varphi_i)=1~,\varphi_i\,\dot\varphi_i=0~$

$$\mathbf\omega=\dot{\mathbf{\theta}}$$

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$\delta \vec{r} = \delta \vec{ \theta} \times \vec{r} \tag{1}\;,$

...but I don't quite catch where that particular equation (1)

It is easiest to start in two dimensions. Recall the equation for the arc length $\ell$ along a circle of radius $R$: $$ \ell = \theta R\;. \tag{A} $$

Eq. (A) above defines the angle $\theta$ in radians.

For example, the total circumference of the circle is $2\pi R$ (i.e., $\theta = 2\pi$ radians). For example, a quarter of the circumference is the length $\frac{\pi}{2}R$. For example, a hundredth of the circumference is the length $\frac{2\pi}{100}R$.

If the arc length is very small, the curve of the circle is negligible and the magnitude of the change of the radius vector (in 2d) is: $$ \delta R = \delta \theta R\;, $$ where the $\delta \theta$ is a notation that is supposed to tell you that the angular change is small.

In your 3d picture, the radius of the circle $R$ is your $r$ times the sine of the angle between your $\vec{\delta \theta}$ vector and your $\vec r$ vector.

Thus: $$ \delta r = \delta R = R \delta \theta = r\sin(\chi)\delta \theta\;, $$ where $\chi$ is the angle between $\vec r$ and $\vec{\delta \theta}$. Or, if $\hat n$ is pointing in the direction of the change of $\vec r$, which is the direction of $\vec{\delta \theta}\times\vec{r}$ $$ \vec{\delta r} = \hat n r\sin(\chi)\delta \theta\;, $$

This can be re-written in terms of vectors and a cross product as: $$ \vec{\delta r} = \vec{\delta \theta} \times \vec r = r\sin(\chi)\delta \theta\hat{n}=\hat n R \delta \theta\;. $$

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