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See the attached discussion from Zangwill's Modern Electrodynamics, and in particular footnote 9. The point of this question is to understand how to recover Coulomb’s force law from an assumed form for potential energy.

I have three questions about this calculation:

  1. How general is the calculation? In particular, footnote 9 clearly dictates that we are computing a slight perturbation in the potential energy, $\delta V_E$, due to a rigid shift of the charge distribution $\rho_2$ (i.e. due to a shift in the centre of mass coordinate $\textbf{R}$). But one could conceive of more general motions of the distribution -- e.g. to a deformation of the distribution. Thus why should we expect our calculation of the Coulomb force $\textbf{F}$ in 3.69 (which is of course correct by way of other derivations) to be correct in the most general case?

  2. I'm a bit confused with the logic that Zangwill uses in 3.69. First, I think from 3.68 on the RHS that we can easily conclude that minus the integral on the RHS of 3.68 is the gradient of the potential energy with respect to these centre of mass coordinates, since only the gradient obeys the equation (for the total differential of $V_E$) $\delta V_E = (\nabla_\textbf{R}V_E) \cdot\delta\textbf{s}$ for all possible perturbations of the centre of mass $\delta \textbf{s}$. Fair enough: so this establishes the RHS equality in 3.69, where I believe Zangwill is using the notation $ \nabla_\textbf{R}V_E \equiv \frac{\partial V_E}{\partial \textbf{S}}$. Is this correct? Further, to establish that these are each equal to the force $\textbf{F}$ on system 2, I suppose we appeal to some theorem from classical mechanics which says that the force on an extended system equals (minus) the gradient with respect to the centre of mass coordinate of the potential energy of the system -- is this true? I am not familiar enough with classical mechanics to know.

  3. Finally, it should be possible to compute $ \nabla_\textbf{R}V_E$ given the proposed form 3.64 for $V_E$ and to recover the Coulomb force $\textbf{F}$ in 3.69. That is to say, thinking of $V_E$ as a function of the centre of mass coordinate $\textbf{R}$ for a fixed background potential $\varphi_1$, and of $\rho_2 = \rho_2(\textbf{r},\textbf{R})$ as a function of the centre of mass coordinate $\textbf{R}$ as well, we find $$-\nabla_\textbf{R}V_E=-\nabla_\textbf{R}\int d^3r \ \rho_2(\textbf{r},\textbf{R})\varphi_1(\textbf{r})=-\int d^3r \ \nabla_\textbf{R}\rho_2(\textbf{r},\textbf{R})\varphi_1(\textbf{r}) $$ but I struggle to go any further than this. I think I've got to somehow express $\textbf{r}$ in terms of $\textbf{R}$ so that I can use integration by parts to transfer the derivative over to $\varphi_1$, but I can't quite see how. Perhaps I was wrong to write $\rho_2 = \rho_2(\textbf{r},\textbf{R})$. I suppose I can perhaps observe that for every $\textbf{r}$, $\textbf{r} = \textbf{R}+\textbf{s}$ for some $\textbf{s}$, so that $$-\nabla_\textbf{R}V_E=-\nabla_\textbf{R}\int d^3r \ \rho_2(\textbf{r})\varphi_1(\textbf{r})=-\int d^3s \ \nabla_\textbf{R}\rho_2(\textbf{R}+\textbf{s})\varphi_1(\textbf{R}+\textbf{s}) = -\int d^3s \ (\nabla_\textbf{R}\rho_2(\textbf{R}+\textbf{s}))\varphi_1(\textbf{R}+\textbf{s}) + \int d^3s \ \rho_2(\textbf{R}+\textbf{s})\textbf{E}_1(\textbf{R}+\textbf{s})$$ but the last expression is not correct (does not equal $\textbf{F}$) since the first term does not vanish. Where am I going wrong?

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  • $\begingroup$ Possible duplicates: physics.stackexchange.com/q/271423/2451 and links therein. $\endgroup$
    – Qmechanic
    Commented Jan 3, 2023 at 19:25
  • $\begingroup$ Thank you for your comment @Qmechanic, but I think that link is entirely unrelated: I have zero question about the physics here and, after all, that question is about electrostatic total energy $U_E$ and this question is about a component thereof, the potential (interaction) energy $V_E$. Also, this question is mainly about how one would obtain the Coulomb force assuming the form for $V_E$ as the axiom/initial hypothesis. $\endgroup$
    – EE18
    Commented Jan 3, 2023 at 19:35

1 Answer 1

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Question 1

He is using the definition of force from the principle of virtual work. By definition, you only need to consider translation. For example, if you had considered rotations about an axis, it would have given torque with respect to this axis, and rotations about a point gives torque about this point.

Arbitrary charge preserving deformations gives the force density (local distribution of force) which is the most general, from which everything can be deduced. However, integrating this volume force would give you back the original force, since translation is a possible movement of all deformations. Btw the calculation for the volume force is analogous to the proof of Poynting's theorem without magnetism.

For the computation, it is the same, only $\delta s$ depends on $r$. From the continuity equation: $$ \delta \rho +\nabla \cdot (\rho\delta s)=0 $$ You then get: $$ \begin{align} -\delta V &= -\int d^3r \phi_1\delta \rho_2 \\ &= \int d^3r \phi_1\nabla \cdot (\rho\delta s) \\ &= -\int d^3r \nabla\phi_1 \cdot (\rho\delta s) \\ &= \int d^3r (\rho_2 E_1) \cdot \delta s \\ \end{align} $$ so you identify the volume force: $$ f= \rho_2 E_1 $$ and in particular you recover the previous result: $$ F=\int d^3r f $$ Question 2

Yes, the $\partial_s$ is in your notation $\partial_R$.

This is rather the definition of potential, when you have a translation degree of freedom $s$: $$ F = -\partial_s V $$

Actually, the choice of the center of mass is irrelevant. what matters is that the configuration is parametrised by a translation for calculating the net force. However, if you are interested in dynamics, then the center of mass is a natural choice as its acceleration is precisely given by this force.

Question 3

I have the impression that you are just reproducing Zangwill's method. To continue your calulation, you need notice that $\rho_2(r,R)=\rho_2(r-R)$, and then do a change of variables in the integral and change back: $$ \begin{align} -\partial_R V_E &= \partial_R \int d^3r\rho_2(r,R)\phi_1(r) \\ &= -\partial_R \int d^3r\rho_2(r-R)\phi_1(r) \\ &= -\partial_R \int d^3r\rho_2(r)\phi_1(r+R) \\ &= \int d^3r\rho_2(r)E_1(r+R) \\ &= \int d^3r\rho_2(r-R)E_1(r) \\ &= \int d^3r\rho_2(r,R)E_1(r) \\ \end{align} $$

Hope this helps.

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  • $\begingroup$ I completely follow you on Q2 and Q3 -- thank you for that. With respect to Q1, do you have any references I can look at? I don't, for instance, follow your sentence beginning "For example...". $\endgroup$
    – EE18
    Commented Jan 6, 2023 at 17:49
  • $\begingroup$ If you want I can show you the computation. For the principle of virtual work, I only know about the Feynman lectures $\endgroup$
    – LPZ
    Commented Jan 6, 2023 at 22:37
  • $\begingroup$ Can you take a look at this (physics.stackexchange.com/q/744301) question? It seems like I've answered my Q1 and Q2 here by using your answer to Q3. If you think that I'm correct in that question I'm happy to go ahead and accept the answer here. $\endgroup$
    – EE18
    Commented Jan 7, 2023 at 15:14
  • $\begingroup$ Looks good to me. For the actual new question I’ll address it at the other page. $\endgroup$
    – LPZ
    Commented Jan 7, 2023 at 16:31
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks, please let me know when you can! $\endgroup$
    – EE18
    Commented Jan 8, 2023 at 12:46

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