1
$\begingroup$

For this problem,

enter image description here

Do you please know why when considering that the capacitor and dielectric is our system, the work energy theorem gives the wrong sign for the change in electrostatic potential energy

The correct solution is above,

enter image description here

From conservation of energy,

enter image description here

However from the work energy theorem,

enter image description here

$\endgroup$
1
  • $\begingroup$ I assume that the electrostatic force is internal to the system, and the force moving the dielectric out from the plates is external to the system. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 21, 2022 at 22:50

2 Answers 2

1
$\begingroup$

If you use the work-energy theorem then you don't need to refer to potential energy. But you need to remember that the change in KE is equal to the net work. So, in your case, the work-energy theorem indeed "tells" that the net work is zero. This means that there are at least two forces doing work: the force pulling the slab from the capacitor and the force of the electric field on the slab. The work of the electric field is negative and in the critical case (minimum work done by the pulling force) is equal in magnitude to the positive work of the external, pulling force. This is why it is called the "minimum work". If the positive work is larger in magnitude than the work of the electric field then the net work is not zero and there will be some kinetic energy of the slab.

Edit

For the system capacitor+dielectric the energy is not really conserved because there are external forces. So if you want to use energy ballance (rather than "conservation") what we have is $E_{final}=E_{initial} + W_{external}$ As the kinetic energy is zero in both states you simply have $PE_{final}=PE_{initial} + W_{external}$ If you use the potential energy of the electric forces you have already counted for the work of these forces. For conservative forces (which are the ones with an associated PE) you either use the work itself or the potential energy but not both. So, in the end, you have that the work done by that external force is the difference between the potential energies: $W_{external}=PE_{final}-PE_{initial} $

$\endgroup$
16
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks for your answer @nasu, so I tried applying the work energy theorem using what you said about the work done by the force applied is equal and opposite to the work done by the capacitor's electric field. However, as I mentioned in the updated problem statement, the work done on the dielectric is negative of the change in electrostatic potential energy. However this is wrong because I am meant to be getting the work done on the dielectric is the positive change in electrostatic potential energy. Do you please know why I am getting the wrong sign? Many thanks. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 21, 2022 at 18:32
  • $\begingroup$ There is no potential energy in the work-energy theorem. So, you are not applying the work-energy theorem if you deal with potential energy. However, the potential energy is the negative of the work done by the field. There is no PE associated with the force pulling the slab from the capacitor. In your last formula, you have the wrong sign. The work done by the electric field (W_capacitor) is the negative of the change in the potential energy of the capacitor. $W_{capacitor}=-\Delta E_{capacitor} $. They don't have the same sign. $\endgroup$
    – nasu
    Commented Nov 22, 2022 at 1:55
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks for your comment! Maybe I’ll understand it better if we consider the system. I choose the system to be the capacitor and the dielectric for both conservation of energy and the work energy theorem. So the electrostatic force between the capacitor plates is internal to the system and the force applied is external to the system? However, why are we allowed to set: net external work = internal work done by electrostatic forces + external force? Many thanks! $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 22, 2022 at 21:33
  • $\begingroup$ Why do you think that the external work includes the work of internal forces? Why would you even call it "external work"? $\endgroup$
    – nasu
    Commented Nov 22, 2022 at 23:56
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks for your comment! I think I'm getting the system confused here. I think that the electrostatic force is internal to the system, and the force moving the dielectric out from the plates is external to the system. I assume the dielectric and capacitor are our system which we use the work energy theorem for. Therefore, net external work = internal work done by electrostatic forces + external applied force = 0. Am I please correct? Many thanks! $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 23, 2022 at 0:06
1
$\begingroup$

The work calculated in (b)(i) is the difference between the potential energy of the capacitor without and with the dielectric. This represents the minimum work required to transition from the initial to the final state.

This is analogous to doing work to roll a ball up hill, its (gravitational) potential energy increases while its kinetic energy can be kept constant. The work done by the force pushing the ball is equal and opposite to the work done by gravity. Here, the work done by electrostatic forces on the dielectric is equal and opposite to the work done by the force that removes it from the capacitor (i.e. what's given in (b)(i)).

$\endgroup$
6
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks so much for your answer! But does that mean that work done to remove the dielectric = - negative change energy stored in capacitor, however to get correct answer I must use work done to remove the dielectric = negative change energy stored in capacitor. Do you know how to deal with these signs please? Thanks! $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 21, 2022 at 8:20
  • $\begingroup$ There's no change in sign: $W_{External Force} = \Delta PE = -W_{Capacitor Electrostatic Forces}$. (Here work done by an external force to remove the dielectric is $W_{External Force}$, change in energy stored in system is $\Delta PE$, and $W_{Capacitor Electrostatic Forces}$ is work done by electrostatic forces within the system.) $\endgroup$
    – FTT
    Commented Nov 21, 2022 at 9:08
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks for your comment! Maybe I’ll understand it better if I consider the system. So I choose the system to be the capacitor and the dielectric for both conservation of energy and the work energy theorem. So the electrostatic force between the capacitor plates is internal to the system and the force applied is external to the system? However, why are we allowed to set: net external work = internal work done by electrostatic forces + external force? Many thanks. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 22, 2022 at 4:45
  • $\begingroup$ Glad to help. In my previous comment, work was that done on the dielectric alone due to forces acting on it (the force removing the dielectric and the electrostatic forces). The net work done on the dielectric will be zero, presuming it starts and finishes at rest. Viewing the system as a whole from the perspective of the $\sum W = \Delta KE$ is not the way to go. Here work done by the external force goes into increasing its internal energy. This is like work being done to compress a spring. $\endgroup$
    – FTT
    Commented Nov 22, 2022 at 12:40
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks for your helping, sorry could you explain more why viewing the system as a whole is the wrong way to view it? If I use the work energy theorem for a compression of the spring assuming the spring is the system, then the work done to compress the spring (external force?) is equal to the work done by the spring force (internal force?) assuming final and initial KE = 0. Many thanks! $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 22, 2022 at 21:37

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.