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In my version of the textbook by Giancoli: Physics for Scientists and Engineers, in chapter 8, there is a formulation of the law of conservation of energy that seems unintuitive and correctable to me. It first states the law in words which seems fine, and in a formulation:$$\Delta K+\Delta U+\text{[change in all other forms of energy]}=0,$$where $K$ is kinetic energy and $U$ potential energy. I'm not sure about this, but then it goes on to state the law in this manner:$$W_\text{net}=W_\text{C}+W_\text{NC},$$ where f.e. $W_\text{C}$ means "work done by conservative forces", and equivalently:$$\Delta K+\Delta U=W_\text{NC}.$$Now, you can rewrite this as $$E_2=E_1+W_\text{NC},$$ where $E$ of course means "mechanical energy". But this seems nonsense to me. I mean, why would you define it this way? It would make much more sense to me to define the net work by:$$W_\text{net}=W_\text{C}-W_\text{NC} \Leftrightarrow E_2=E_1-W_\text{NC},$$and total work by:$$W_\text{tot}=W_\text{C}+W_\text{NC}.$$Or am I missing something important here?

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  • $\begingroup$ $E_1-E_2$ represents the mechanical energy "lost" to the system. $\endgroup$
    – Farcher
    Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 9:46
  • $\begingroup$ Sorry, but very unhelpful. I have the feeling that you didn't bother to really consider my question. What you wrote is totally obvious to me. What isn't obvious... is the sign of $W_{NC}$, and, the distinction between $W_{tot}$ and $W_{net}$ that I feel should be made here. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 12:18
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    $\begingroup$ Can you clarify the difference between net and total work? $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 12:55
  • $\begingroup$ Hmm maybe there isn't a difference.. Thank you for asking that question. But then my question about net work still remains... $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 13:41

2 Answers 2

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The net work is the sum of the work done by conservatives and non-conservatives forces: $$W_{net} = W_C + W_{NC}.$$ And it is equal to the change in the kinetic energy: $$W_{net} = \Delta K.$$ If the force is conservative, the system loses potential energy: $$W_C = -\Delta U.$$ Then, $$\Delta K + \Delta U = W_{net} - W_C = W_{NC}.$$ So, if there are only conservatives forces, we have $\Delta K + \Delta U = 0$. Moreover, if it is not zero, it means it is equal to the work done by non-conservatives forces: $$\Delta E = W_{NC}.$$

If there exists even more kinds of energy, not included in a non-conservatives-forces term, then you need to use Thermodynamics.

Example: If a system loses $5J$ from its potential energy and it gains $2J$ for its kinetic energy, it means: $$\Delta U = -5 = -W_C$$ $$\Delta K = +2 = W_{net}$$ (the net effect of this process is to raise 2J the kinetic energy). So we see that there are $3J$ waisted. For example, they could be lost in a friction process, which is a non-conservative force:

$$W_{NC} = -3$$

Therefore:

$$\Delta U + \Delta K = -5 + 2 = -3 = W_{NC}.$$

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  • $\begingroup$ You don't say... You basically copied what I wrote xD $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 12:15
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    $\begingroup$ Sorry for that. What I meant is that this is the definition of net work and all makes sense. It is net cause work can be positive of negative. Then, the sum is the net work done by forces: Wnet = +5 +(-3) = 2 for instance, where 2J is the increase of kinetic energy of the system: 5J are lost from potential energy (conservatives forces). But from this 5J, only 2J go to kinetic, the rest is lost by friction (NC force), so WNC = -3. $\endgroup$
    – geofisue
    Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 12:43
  • $\begingroup$ @KjellDeMars I have edit my previous answer to include an example. If it responds your original question, you can accept it. $\endgroup$
    – geofisue
    Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 12:51
  • $\begingroup$ Ah yes examples I totally forgot about them for a moment... Guess I'll have to make some practice problems to fully understand this. Thank you. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 13:54
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The equation $\Delta K+\Delta U=W_\text{NC}$ in the textbook (p168) is in the context of a car being slowed down by frictional (non-conservative) forces with the conservative force (gravitational attraction) doing no work.
It is also pointed out that non-conservative force direction is opposite to the direction of motion of the car and so $W_\text{NC}$ is negative.

But this just seems like total idiocy to me. I mean, why would you define it this way?
Because in the car example given in the textbook it equates the change in the mechanical energy of a system to the work done by non-conservative forces when conservative forces are doing no work.

I am also unsure about is what net work is as opposed to total work?
If you add your two final equations together you get $W_{\rm net}+W_{\rm tot} = 2W_{\rm C}$ and what useful information is contained there?

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  • $\begingroup$ Good point. And I hadn't looked at the example so I will. Sorry about the frustrated language. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 13:52
  • $\begingroup$ @KjellDeMars I rejected your edit because I was using a direct quote from the OP. $\endgroup$
    – Farcher
    Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 14:03
  • $\begingroup$ Sure, whatever makes you tick. $\endgroup$ Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 18:51

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