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Is there a way to derive classical Lagrangian mechanics (in particular, the classical Lagrangian $L = T-V$ and the Euler-Lagrange equation), under the simple assumption that mechanical energy is conserved?

Edit: Since it seems that my question caused some confusion, I will attempt to clarify.

Assume that we know the work-energy theorem (and thereby, know that the sum of the kinetic and potential energies, $T+V$, is conserved). Using this knowledge, is there a direct, intuitive way to derive classical Lagrangian mechanics (which amounts to deriving the Euler-Lagrange equation)?

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  • $\begingroup$ Hamiltonian formalism (as opposed to Lagrangian one) is essentially the energy conservation. $\endgroup$
    – Roger V.
    Commented Apr 29 at 9:46
  • $\begingroup$ In classical mechanics, with a macroscopic description of simple systems, are you sure that mechanical energy $T+V$ is always constant? I'll drop an answer below later $\endgroup$
    – basics
    Commented Apr 29 at 9:49

2 Answers 2

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The following is a comment, I'm posting it in answer space since it is too large for the comment space.


In a Jan. 2020 answer to a question about derivation in physics stackexchange contributor Kevin Zhou (@knzhou) pointed out the following:

[...] in physics, you can often run derivations in both directions: you can use X to derive Y, and also Y to derive X. That isn't circular reasoning, because the real support for X (or Y) isn't that it can be derived from Y (or X), but that it is supported by some experimental data D. This two-way derivation then tells you that if you have data D supporting X (or Y), then it also supports Y (or X).

I'm quoting that statement here to emphasize the following: while it is the case that from assumption of conservation of energy the logical implications that you describe do follow, no wider conclusions can be drawn. The logical steps are correct, but they do not shed new light.

In any logical system there is great freedom to interchange theorem and axiom without changing the content of the system.



The Work-Energy theorem is obtained by deriving it from F=ma

The Work-Energy theorem:

$$ \int_{s_0}^s F \ ds = \tfrac{1}{2}mv^2 - \tfrac{1}{2}mv_0^2 $$

It follows from the work-energy theorem that in the course of physics taking place the rate at which the kinetic energy is changing will be equal to the rate at which the potential energy is changing - with opposite sign.

Hence: the value of the sum of kinetic energy and potential energy will remain the same.


Next:
There is a close connection between the Work-Energy theorem and Hamilton's stationary action.
Both are expressed in terms of kinetic and potential energy.
From both $F=ma$ can be recovered.

In fact:
In cases where the work-energy theorem holds good: Hamilton's stationary action holds good also.



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    $\begingroup$ I would argue this is an answer, not a long comment $\endgroup$ Commented Apr 9, 2022 at 23:06
  • $\begingroup$ I believe I understand where you're coming from. The original idea behind my question was to find a way to illustrate the connection between conservation of energy and the Lagrangian $T-V$ in a direct and intuitive manner (for, say, educational purposes), as opposed to proving that such a connection exists. I should perhaps have emphasized this in my question. $\endgroup$
    – Engelmark
    Commented Apr 10, 2022 at 8:17
  • $\begingroup$ @Engelmark For sure the connection can be illustrated. I think your presentation does not meet your goal of providing a direct manner. Can I persuade you to read the two answers that I linked to: derivation of the work-energy theorem. And: derivation of Hamilton's stationary action. I am eager to discuss these subjects, but: while physics stackexchange is a forum, it is specifically designed to be not a threaded forum. (Contact information for email is on my stackexchange profile page.) $\endgroup$
    – Cleonis
    Commented Apr 10, 2022 at 10:18
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It seems OP's question (v2) is ill-posed in the sense that it is not completely clear what is known and what is not, and under which conditions. E.g. do we know the mechanical energy as a function $$(q,\dot{q})\quad\mapsto\quad T(q,\dot{q})+V(q)~?\tag{1}$$ If yes it seems that in many case (especially if one has a geometric understanding of the system), one can deduce the kinetic energy $T$ and potential energy $V$ independently, up to irrelevant constants. And then one would essentially have the Lagrangian $L=T-V$ from the very beginning, rendering OP's question moot.

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  • $\begingroup$ I have edited my original question in an attempt to clarify. Hopefully it makes more sense now. $\endgroup$
    – Engelmark
    Commented Apr 10, 2022 at 14:02

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