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I had a question regarding constructing an infinite interval with a starting point given an an infinite past. I wish to model an infinite past in a non-formal non-rigorous set theoretic manner and was wondering if my logic below is sound. Something about the way I constructed the interval below bothers me, and seeing that I am not very familiar with mathematics, and particularly ordinal arithmetic, I was hoping this community could either validate or correct my thought process. Below I am assuming an ordered set with each element being a year of the past (except for the current year). The current year is the last element and each element is one year less then the element after it. Given that information, my thought process goes as follows:

If the past is infinite, then the current year is at the very least in the ordinal position ω, yet we do not know if its ordinal position is “further” than this, so we represent the index of the current year with ω + (x), with x being any ordinal value greater than or equal to 0.

Now we can attempt to determine the ordinal value of (x) by looking at the previous year. Since before the current year an infinite amount of years have passed, we know that before the previous years an infinite amount of years have also passed, hence the ordinal value of (x) is at least 1. Yet we can derive far greater values of x using the same logic.

No matter how far back we go, regardless of the year we land on, that year will have an infinite amount of years prior to it, as there is a gulf between the finite and the infinite, such that they are never contiguous. Hence, it seems that there are an infinite amount of years that have an infinite amount of years prior to them, and therefore we can conclude that the ordinal value of (x) is at least ω.

Nevertheless, it seems apparent to me that given this we can derive a yet further ordinal value for (x). Following the same algorithm as previously used, looking at the previous year (from this year), it seems as if it too has an infinite number of elements prior to it that themselves have an infinite number of elements prior to them. This also seems to be the case no matter how far back you go, resulting in (x) being conceivable as at least 2ω.

With that said, assuming the ordinal position of the current year is at the very least ω + 2ω or 3ω, it seems as if I can easily construct an infinite interval represented by the ordered set with the starting index being ω + 100 and end index being 2ω + 200 (the starting point and the end point were both chosen randomly) resulting in an ordered set with an infinite amount of indices (and a cardinal value of aleph_0).

Is this correct? If not, where did go astray?

Thank you

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    @IdiosyncraticSoul Thank you for the response, but that post does not answer my question. My question is regarding my construction of a set with an infinite interval that has a definite start and end point given a set-theoretic model of time.
    – AminGow
    Commented Mar 24 at 21:26
  • Why take [ω + 100, 2ω + 200] if you can get the same with [100, ω + 200]? Or [1,ω] for that matter? Also, you seem to assume that every year has a previous year, but if so then you will never get an infinite such set with ordinals (ω and 2ω have no previous years). However, you can get that by combining ω with its opposite ω' (which is not an ordinal), the order type of negative numbers. It means making all negative numbers greater than any positive number. Then there are infinitely many years between 1 and -1, but each has previous year
    – Conifold
    Commented Mar 25 at 8:09
  • @Conifold I recognize that given an infinitely descending chain, ordinal positions cannot be provided (the set is not well-ordered), however, what I wish to portray is the sense that given the assumption of an infinite past, that there will always be some point in which there is an infinite amount of time between the current day and that point. The usage of ordinals here is not meant to be representative of their "proper" use, but rather to determine the minimal hypothetical position of the last element on the ordinal number line (as the last element has an indeterminate position).
    – AminGow
    Commented Mar 25 at 15:17
  • @Conifold As for the chosen starting point and end point, I chose them randomly. Regardless, how would you recommend I model such a notion, or perhaps I'm simply wrong? It seems to me that the logic I provided must hold some merit, particularly the fact that there are an infinite amount of years prior to the current year that have an infinite amount of years prior to them, and so on; I'd be surprised if such an ordering were bereft of a point such that between that point and the final point is an infinite interval.
    – AminGow
    Commented Mar 25 at 15:22
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    Maybe I am missing something, but " some point in which there is an infinite amount of time between the current day and that point" seems like a trivial consequence of infinite time (infinite ordered set) and starting/current point (least/greatest element). You can always take the starting point as that point. There have to be infinitely many points in between because they are all in between and there are infinitely many of them by assumption. What is the rest of the argument for?
    – Conifold
    Commented Mar 25 at 17:22

2 Answers 2

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You said you want to model “in a non-formal, non-rigorous set-theoretic manner.” That’s fine by me, but since you also say “Something about the way I constructed the interval below bothers me”, I’m going to go ahead and approach this in a fully formal way, since it can help give you new ideas about how to model the idea.

I’ll start with the formal system “Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory with the axiom of choice”. This is a collection of sentences written in the language of “first-order logic”.

First, let’s begin by stating we have the following (and we won’t worry about where they came from):

  1. A bunch of symbols which we will call constants.
  2. A bunch of symbols which we will call variables.
  3. A bunch of symbols we will call functions.
  4. A bunch of symbols we will call predicates.

Each of the above categories of symbol will be given its own set of rules; they act differently than each other, in our ruleset.

On this symbolic language, we also define some more special symbols, which are the more familiar elements of logic:

¬ (negation), ∧ (conjunction), ∨ (disjunction), → (implication), ↔ (biconditional), ∀ (universal quantifier), ∃ (existential quantifier). And we’ll define their rules below, too.

(There are also punctuation symbols like commas that I don’t see the need to define.)

In this language, the function symbols so far are meaningless. They are just a symbolic rule we have, where if you have a variable x, or a constant c, you can always make up function expressions using them, like f(c, x, y). This is just a way of generating new strings of symbols.

Anything that represents an object that we are talking about, is called a term. First-order logic is a language for talking about some things. The cool thing is, it can be used to talk about different things, since it’s abstract. Whatever we are using it to talk about, we call the domain of discourse.

In general, the constant symbols represent specific things in our domain of discourse. The variables are special placeholders. With further rules about to be defined, we can have a variable say “I refer to a certain thing, but you don’t know which one it is,” for example.

These are called terms. Terms represent things in the domain of discourse. Constants represent specific things. Variables are a way for us to talk about the things without being as specific. Functions represent some way of grouping the things together (which depends on the kind of thing).

Predicates are meant to represent statements about things. They take terms, and they judge if the statement (proposition) about the thing (term) is “true” or “false”.

This language is used to define a system of mathematics - set theory. You write certain claims, or facts, about “some things” (which we can refer to as sets, since this intuitively captures the behavior of the things we are describing). These are the claims:

  1. ∀x ∀y (∀z (z ∈ x ↔ z ∈ y) → x = y)
  2. ∃x ∀y (y ∉ x)
  3. ∀x ∀y ∃z ∀w (w ∈ z ↔ (w = x ∨ w = y))
  4. ∀x ∃y ∀z (z ∈ y ↔ ∃w (z ∈ w ∧ w ∈ x))
  5. ∀x ∃y ∀z (z ∈ y ↔ ∀w (w ∈ z → w ∈ x))
  6. ∃x (∅ ∈ x ∧ ∀y (y ∈ x → y ∪ {y} ∈ x))
  7. ∀x ∃y ∀z (z ∈ y ↔ (z ∈ x ∧ φ(z)))
  8. ∀x ((∀y ∈ x ∃!z φ(y, z)) → ∃w ∀y ∈ x ∃z ∈ w φ(y, z))
  9. ∀x (x ≠ ∅ → ∃y (y ∈ x ∧ ∀z (z ∈ y → z ∉ x)))
  10. ∀x (∀y ∈ x ∀z ∈ x (y ≠ z → y ∩ z = ∅) → ∃f (f: x → ⋃x ∧ ∀y ∈ x (f(y) ∈ y)))

There are some symbols we did not mention in the explanation of the language, above. The most important one is ‘∈’. This is a predicate. (We said above we had a bunch of predicate symbols. So this is one we took from that bunch and chose to write some rules using.)

[I have to come back here later and flesh out the rest of my presentation of set theory. I’m still learning and I need to move on to the main point now.]

Below I am assuming an ordered set with each element being a year of the past (except for the current year).

Basically, when you have the axioms of ZFC, you use them, along with certain defined rules of inference, to prove the existence of a certain set. When you assume an ordered set of all past years, let’s assume (for now) we actually are taking the elements of some ordered set - which are actually sets - and interpreting them with our human subjectivity to “denote” or stand for the conceptual thing called “years”, we know in our experiential, ontological world.

We need to define “ordered set”, using the axioms of ZFC. I am going to skip the full proof for now. The idea is, an ordered set is a bijective function from an ordinal set to any other set. A bijective function is a function meeting certain conditions that can be expressed in the language of FOL. You can prove the existence of “the set of all ordered sets” (I think), then state that your set of “years up to now” is some element in that set.

If the past is infinite, then the current year is at the very least in the ordinal position ω, yet we do not know if its ordinal position is “further” than this, so we represent the index of the current year with ω + (x), with x being any ordinal value greater than or equal to 0.

I think one problem with this formalization is you claim x, a variable, is an element in a particular set: the set of all sets greater than ω. I believe it is not possible to prove the existence of such a set in ZFC, but I could be wrong. It might relate to Russell’s paradox. (Intuitively, consider that this succession of sets never ends. Well, according to your definition, that infinite succession of sets is itself contained by some enclosing set - the set of all such sets. Assuming this set is larger than any of the sets it contains, it follows that that succession of sets eventually must include that containing set; a contradiction since the set cannot be larger than itself.)

Please consider this “Part 1”, I’ll be back later to deliver Part 2. Thanks.

It seems like in the rest of your post you also came to the conclusion that there is something paradoxical, but in a different way. I’ll come back to try to help you find a non-paradoxical formulation.

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  • Hello Julius, thank you for the response. I wanted to comment that the notion of ω + (x) is not meant to be an element in the set of all sets greater than ω (though assuming such a set existed it would be contained within on of the elements of such a set), but rather it was meant to represent an ambiguous ordinal position that this year would have in the ordered set that is meant to model an infinite past (as we know that the ordinal position of this year under such a model is at least ω, though it could potentially be later).
    – AminGow
    Commented Mar 25 at 0:27
  • I’ll be looking forward to part two. Thank you once again.
    – AminGow
    Commented Mar 25 at 0:27
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Below I am assuming an ordered set with each element being a year of the past (except for the current year). The current year is the last element and each element is one year less then the element after it.

If one's to count 'discretely', adding and subtracting ones, then the non-positive integers Z_≤0 should work, with 0 the current year

If the past is infinite, then the current year is at the very least in the ordinal position ω

If the current year were ω, what would last year be? It cannot be any n in ω, for that would violate the clause "each element is one year less then the element after it", since n+1 is strictly less than ω, so I guess it's better to stick with Z_≤0 and 0

yet we do not know if its ordinal position is “further” than this,

It doesn't really matter what element of Z we choose to be the current year, since for any a in Z we have that Z+a is order-isomorphic to Z anyway, so that

so we represent the index of the current year with ω + (x), with x being any ordinal value greater than or equal to 0.

becomes unecessarily complicated, really

Now we can attempt to determine the ordinal value of (x) by looking at the previous year. Since before the current year an infinite amount of years have passed, we know that before the previous years an infinite amount of years have also passed, hence the ordinal value of (x) is at least 1.

Of course, there are infinitely many years before 'last year' = -1, no surprises

No matter how far back we go, regardless of the year we land on, that year will have an infinite amount of years prior to it,

Yeah, there are infinitely many years before any -n

as there is a gulf between the finite and the infinite, such that they are never contiguous.

I have no idea what this means

Hence, it seems that there are an infinite amount of years that have an infinite amount of years prior to them, and therefore we can conclude that the ordinal value of (x) is at least ω.

This is simply false, as it should be clear by now, just checking the order-type of Z

Is this correct? If not, where did go astray?

Wrong from the beginning, by having picked a weird order-type to model the problem, instead of the pertinent one

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