35

I am not sure how to phrase this, but recently I flagged a question in the SO Close Vote Reviewers chat room and "some" didn't agree with the close vote reason. As usual, I stated my argument which is nothing unusual, but this time after checking the original question I noticed a new comment:

@theuser Just FYI: There was a discussion as to this question being on-topic (starting here) and continuing, off and on, at least through now. The significant majority of people participating felt this question was on-topic on Stack Overflow. Lankymart was the vocal minority and feels this question is off-topic, or too broad.

This seemed quite personal and is basically inferring I am the reason the question at the time had three close votes. So, I flagged the comment for moderator attention, because I didn't feel it was fair to call me out personally.

Don't feel this comment is justified, it targets myself as the reason the question has close votes but there are 3 close votes at time of writing this, why should I be singled out? – Lankymart 2 hours ago - declined

Surprising to me the flag was declined.

Is calling people out like this on question comments acceptable behaviour? Can the moderator explain why the flag was declined?

12
  • 12
    Somewhat related, though applies to meta. While I personally think moderation-focused activities, such as chatrooms focused on moderation, are public roles and the actions taken there, including which users take the action, are allowed to be subject to public scrutiny, you can see by the votes on that answer that this is not a commonly-shared opinion.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 11:41
  • 2
    @MartijnPieters it may be referring to the chat but they refer to me by username and make it sound like my opinion is contrary to the rest of the SO Close Reviewers members, which may or may not be true only two people voiced an opinion.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:29
  • 1
    To me it would be useful to read the full conversation. Can someone post a link to the question and comments? We just have to go on one or two comments now. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:32
  • @PatrickHofman I'm trying to avoid the very problem I'm talking about - "Calling individuals out", by adding the question and links to the conversations I'm basically doing the same thing. I even anonymised the comments for that reason.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:34
  • 2
    But we don't know what you and others said what lead to this comment. It is pulled out of context now, and we don't know how things transpired. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:35
  • @PatrickHofman This is the comment in question. There's not much further context. I think it's important to view the specifics, and tracking down the user by searching SOCVR is trivial anyway
    – Erik A
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:35
  • It was the dismissiveness of the remark that was wrong "vocal minority". For being called out, replying to a user's comment under a post isn't necessarily bad, it's the tone.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:10
  • 9
    @YvetteColomb personally, didn't see why I needed to be mentioned by name when a link to the discussion would have sufficed.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:29
  • have you considered flagging this comment with suggestion to edit it and replace user name with non-personal reference, like "one of discussion participants"?
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 13, 2019 at 13:11
  • @gnat I did flag it, just didn’t realise it wouldn’t be obvious to the moderator that I was unhappy with being personally picked out in the comment.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 13, 2019 at 16:09
  • moderators probably feel uncomfortable with idea to delete comments based only on presence of user name - because in vast majority cases names appear organically and 100% legitimately from @-pings. You would probably have more luck with edit suggestion, this would help moderator see that your case is not a typical one
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 13, 2019 at 17:11
  • @gnat it doesn't really matter now as Makyen explained their actions. At the time I assumed the "vocal minority" and targeted use of me personally would be enough, but it wasn't but in the end Makyen adjusted their comment anyway which was appreciated.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 13, 2019 at 20:40

4 Answers 4

28

I declined the flag because I don't feel you were being targeted. The comment merely summarised the discussion that took place in a public chatroom.

The comment doesn't disparage you, nor does it give any opinion about the discussion or your participation in that discussion. That others voted to close later on is not really material, the post did go into the close review queue (a review that is still active), and no mention is made of how many close votes are currently pending on that post.

Note that I read 'vocal minority' as meaning that the commenter acknowledges that some people felt the post was off topic (evident by the close votes on the post) but that only Lankymart was explicit in his opinion.

Because neither the post nor the close vote review has been closed yet, I felt the comment was still pertinent so left it in place.

That said, I'll ask for another moderator to review the comment.

24
  • 58
    Calling someone a "Vocal minority" does feel a little like calling someone a "loudmouth with a different opinion", in my opinion. It's quite negative... I'd have worded it differently: "<User> was the only opposing voice, and feels...."
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:27
  • 20
    @Cerbrus: might be a cultural thing? I know you and I are both Dutch, but this doesn't come over to me as being disparaging. I'd be happy to remove the 'vocal' part of the comment if that's the issue here. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:28
  • 4
    Yea, it's probably cultural, so don't take my word for it :-) I'm guessing that's what the problem was.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:29
  • 3
    @Cerbrus: instead, the 'vocal minority', to me, means that there is a minority that felt the post was off-topic and Lankymart was the only one that explicitly voiced that opinion. In contrast to the other close voters on the post, both of whom almost certainly found the post through the SOCVR room too (neither encountered the post in review, both have been active in SOCVR recently). Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:30
  • 5
    @MartijnPieters I wasn't the only person who close voted the question though, so why should I be targeted?
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:32
  • 5
    @Lankymart: why see this as targeted? The other voters did not speak about their votes, that's all. If others had voted and spoken up and only you were being mentioned here, then perhaps you were being singled out. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:34
  • 54
    Before the Dutch have it: I do think the comment is targeting the user and I doubt the comment is left to inform about the content dispute but more to organize social pressure. The comment is not needed, the flag should have been marked helpful and the comment edited or deleted. My down vote on this answer is explained by this comment
    – rene
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:34
  • 4
    @MartijnPieters it mentions me by username, how is that not targeted?
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:35
  • 6
    To be targeted you have to be picked out of a group, if you're literally the only person in a group then it's not targeting, it's just the truth Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:38
  • 4
    @NickA The "group" is anyone who moderates on Stack Overflow, so yeah it was targeted.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:39
  • 5
    @Lankymart No, the "group" is the people in SOCVR who voiced their opinions in the question deserving to be closed, of which you were the only one. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:40
  • 5
    @NickA A close-vote is a close-vote, whether it came from a request to SOCVR or via the UI on a question, I wasn't the only individual who close-voted (question has three close votes) I just happened to be the one who brought it to the attention of SOCVR.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:42
  • 48
    Honestly, to add to the "could be cultural" aspect, everywhere I've been in the States, "vocal minority" is used more as a sort of insult- As in, "they're the idiots making a fuss about what everyone else clearly sees to not be a problem." So... Take that as you will. (Also why I highly disagree with this moderator action and feel that comment was likely meant to target/call out Lanky.)
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 13:23
  • 10
    Not just the States - the use of "vocal minority" is disparaging in Britain too. I would be very surprised, if any native english speaker anywhere did not react the same. Commented Jul 12, 2019 at 6:26
  • 5
    My concern is that it sets up Lanky to be targeted. The comment seems to offer the user in question no advice upon which they could act (like explaining that maybe they should improve the question), so the comment doesn't seem to have any other purpose than to specifically single out Lanky.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 13, 2019 at 12:14
45

I am the person that posted the comment being discussed.

First, Lankymart, I apologize that my comment made you feel hurt and singled out. Neither of those things were my intent in leaving the comment. I am sorry that the comment made you feel that way.

My intent in leaving the comment was to indicate to the question OP that other users felt the question was on-topic.

I mentioned the discussion in SOCVR, because the three close-votes on the question argue that three people feel the question is off-topic and I considered it likely that those close-votes came as a result of your cv-pls request in SOCVR. I felt the OP deserved to know that other people felt the question was on-topic. I linked to the SOCVR discussion, because I did not feel it was appropriate to say that other people supported that the question was on-topic, or mention that there was a discussion, without giving the OP the opportunity to read the discussion and participate, if they chose. None of that conversation was private.

I mentioned you by name, because:

  • one of your comments on the question argues that the question is off-topic, thus you were already indicated as believing the question was off-topic;
  • the OP appeared to be swayed that the question may be off-topic by your comment and the 3 close-votes;
  • the OP had specifically pinged you to ask you if it was more appropriate for the question to be on Stack Overflow or Super User (the only prior mention of Super User is as a suggested site in the close reason selected by 3 people);
  • and you were continuing to participate in the discussion in comments on the question. By mentioning your name, it was not my intent to indicate who had close-voted (I didn't actually know, but would have guessed that you had close-voted). I was intending to acknowledge to the OP that you were the one already participating in the comments on the question who had expressed the opinion that the question was off-topic in a comment.

I mentioned that the "significant majority of people participating" (in the SOCVR discussion) felt the question was on-topic, because there were six participants in that conversation. Of those six, five of them expressed the opinion that PowerShell questions are on-topic and/or that the specific question was on-topic. To me, 5 out of 6 is a "significant majority" (and was sufficient opposition to your cv-pls request for that request to be removed from SOCVR). If the other close-voters were from SOCVR (based on information in this Q&A, that is likely, and I did consider it likely at that time), none of them expressed an opinion in the SOCVR discussion. At the time I wrote "significant majority", I was not considering anything other than the discussion in SOCVR with respect to defining "significant majority". If I had considered the close-votes, then it would have been 5 that felt it was on-topic and 3 which felt it was off-topic, which I probably wouldn't have stated as a "significant majority".

I used the words "vocal minority", because there was only one person who had expressed the opinion that the question was off-topic either in the comments on the question or in the discussion in SOCVR. I did not intend for "vocal minority" to be perceived as personally negative, or negative in general. I intended it to convey to the OP an acknowledgement that you were the only person who had mentioned in comments that the question was off-topic. Similar to what other people have said here, I don't consider "vocal minority" to be negative, merely descriptive. Given that you found "vocal minority" to be negative, and others have mentioned here that there are negative connotations, I would not use it again in this context.

So, again, I apologize that you felt hurt by my comment. That you were is far from my intent. Perhaps it would have been more appropriate for me to merely state my personal opinion, or at least not mention you by name (even though you had already mentioned in a comment on the question that you felt the question was off-topic). I am happy to delete the comment [I have deleted the comment and added one with text similar to what TylerH suggested in a comment below], perhaps with me posting something else (or a moderator editing the comment to remove your name, or the entire "vocal minority" sentence). I had not deleted the comment at the time I wrote this answer, because A) deleting it then probably wouldn't prevent the OP from having read it, as the OP was active 2 hours after you and I last made comments on the question, likely reading it at that time (this answer was 5 hours after the comment, so 3 hours after the OP probably read the comment), and B) the comment is under discussion here and you've brought a similar discussion up in SOCVR.

For the record, the comments on the question at the time just prior to me starting this answer were (partially anonymized):

comments on the question on Main

13
  • 7
    It's worth noting that our transcript is public (Graveyard, /dev/null) and no RO can actually delete a chat comment of any kind, only move it. In general, you should assume that people know about them and that your requests are public. That's not just a SOCVR thing, that's a SO/SE Chat thing. As such, we (the SOCVR ROs) tend to operate on the theory that people know about them by default.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:00
  • 5
    It's also worth noting that the discussion in chat is important since we invoked Rule 28, where a Room Owner binned the request without your permission (5 people disagreed, with 3 of them being ROs)
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:02
  • 2
    @Makyen To me the comment read like, I was the only one suggesting the question should be closed and by doing so I was in opposition to the rest of the community. That is why I flagged the comment and ended up here in meta. But thank you for explaining your position and for the personal apology.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:22
  • 27
    While I agree with Lankymart and rene that mentioning Lankymart by name was unnecessary, I also think Makyen has given a good argument here for why he wrote the comment, along with a mea culpa for the harm it's caused. My recommendation is to simply do what we do for Meta discussions already: simply comment: "FYI - this question was discussed for closure [here]. The majority of participants thus far feel this question is on-topic at Stack Overflow". That gives the OP all the relevant information and link to further reading, without putting any undue focus on any individual.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:25
  • @Makyen not sure where you get 5 out of 6 from though, I trawled the chat and could only find yourself and TylerH who raised an objection (which is absolutely fine btw).
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:31
  • 1
    @Lankymart The people that I counted as voicing opposition were, in the order of their comments: TylerH, Machavity, John Dvorak, myself, and rene.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:38
  • @Makyen honestly those comments I hadn't even connected to this conversation, no idea what all the mention of Powershell is, it's a VBScript to me those comments weren't connected.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:43
  • 2
    @Lankymart I have replaced my comment on the question on Main with one very similar to what TylerH suggested above.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:45
  • @Lankymart I expect that the other people who commented associated it with PowerShell as a result of the tags on the question. My belief, based on the proximity and content of their messages, is that they were commenting on the topicality of the question. Obviously, the only way to actually confirm that is to ask them.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:51
  • 4
    @Lankymart I was happy to offer an apology. It was definitely not my intent to cause you harm. I regret that my comment did. I strongly believe in taking responsibility for my actions, so offering an apology was certainly in order. I also believe in making corrective actions, when possible. Thus, the replacement of the comment.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:56
  • 2
    "I considered it likely that those close-votes came as a result of your cv-pls request in SOCVR" Still, every voter votes on the question, not because of the question being mentioned on SOCVR. I am sure you understand that, but I just wanted to point that out for clarity. And respect for coming here! Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 17:47
  • 5
    @PatrickHofman being accountable on Meta comes with the job
    – rene
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 18:44
  • 4
    For the record, I would feel quite different about the comment if it said "was in the vocal minority" instead of "was the vocal minority". It would still have a negative connotation, but saying that a single person is the vocal minority is on another level of pointing fingers. Commented Jul 12, 2019 at 9:46
19

I think this comment should not be posted. You didn't disclose you were one of the voters as far as I can see in the comment thread.

There is no added value in posting a comment naming you as one of the voters (or indicate that you were one of the users who think the question is off-topic), and calling you a minority sort of invalidates your vote or opinion. The way this was communicated is just missing its point.

Your flag should not have been declined.

16
  • 5
    When a post is closed, the close votes are public. So are review actions on the post review. This isn't about voting up or down. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:41
  • 10
    Until then, there is no need to name users that have voted. And definitely not in that way. @MartijnPieters Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:41
  • 6
    Public chatroom transcripts are public too, however. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:41
  • 3
    Eh, the request may imply it. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:41
  • 1
    Also, the comment doesn't disclose any votes. Mayken doesn't know whom voted, nor does he state that Lankymart did. They report on a discussion where people voiced opinions, that's not the same thing. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:42
  • 4
    I think one of the benefits of these discussions in SOCVR is that we can discuss something without directly involving OP. If someone wants to comment on-site, that is on their own, but don't call others out that way. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:43
  • 4
    To equate SOCVR discussion with votes and so trying to protect the SOCVR transcript is definitely something I'd oppose, regardless of the outcome of this specific case. If you discuss in any of the open chatrooms on SO, that discussion is public. You are effectively calling upon censoring all references to SOCVR discussions of posts here, which most definitely is a step too far. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:48
  • 5
    If the goal is to invite an OP to a continuing discussion in SOCVR there is no issue revealing / linking to our transcript. As as matter of fact, I would endorse that. If anything, the end-result is reached in the room and from that point going forward moderation proceeds according to everyone own judgement. Pending requests might be ditched, a request might be re-scoped. I don't think we need to go that far to declare the outcome and if that is needed then I prefer the user that brought up the request to do so.
    – rene
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:50
  • @MartijnPieters I don't, but I do think a user can be a little more discrete. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:51
  • 4
    As rene commented in SOCVR: "I assume good intent. We can differ on opinion in how that good intent was communicated." That. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:54
  • 1
    @PatrickHofman: perhaps, but that's not the argument you are making in your answer. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:56
  • 1
    @PatrickHofman Yes we should assume good intent (we should always assume it unless we have reason to believe otherwise) but: "You don't bring that discussion on-site to make even more discussion, just to tell you were right." is not assuming good intent, that's actively assuming the commenter did it maliciously. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:57
  • 5
    If you disagree, you disagree. You don't bring that discussion on-site to make even more discussion. Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 12:59
  • 1
    @PatrickHofman A point of contention -- chat.stackoverflow.com is "on-site". Chat is publicly accessible, integrated heavily with the Q&A functionality, and governed by the same ToS and Code of Conduct as the Q&A portion.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 16:27
  • 1
    Yes, of course. I meant the "main site" @TylerH Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 17:43
2

I concur with Martijn; the comment reads on the face of it like a factual statement of the proceedings of an escalated and debated matter.

Being a vocal minority is nothing to be ashamed of. A vocal minority is essential to a fair and optimized decision-making process (a topic of my graduate studies).

In a democracy, the majority has the right to have their way, but where there is minority dissent, the majority can take into account the position of the minority to mitigate their concerns, leading to better outcomes.

Be proud of your contribution.

8
  • Given the targeted harassment that can insue from revealing how members of the community vote, I don't agree with this. Three members close voted when I raised the flag, only I was targeted in the comment.
    – user692942
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 13:23
  • 5
    Did your graduate studies talk about "Vocal minority", or "Minority?". I think there's a difference there...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 13:26
  • 3
    There was a particular moral tale to emphasize the point. youtube.com/watch?v=HM-XyALCGXM Where people are afraid to speak up about their concerns there is an inability to manage agreement. If no-one speaks up, the entire group may decide to do something they all individually dislike. This paradox is well described here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene_paradox
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 13:35
  • 24
    Let's not make this into some language juggling. There was a moderation issue where the OP seeks assistance in SOCVR. Discussion ensues.The outcome of that process is expressed in a way that gives the OP no room to leave the discussion unharmed. None of us wanted that to happen but it did and the flagger had all the rights to raise all eyebrows. Consider me as the vocal minority. In this case your judgement and that of Martijn is off.
    – rene
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 13:38
  • 6
    That's a lot of context (that I still don't precisely follow) that has come out after Martijn came across an innocuous comment in the queue. Should you expect a moderator to do more digging before making a decision on such a flags? I think you're expecting a lot. If users are afraid to be referred to as a "vocal minority" I think that's also a problem that our culture needs to address.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 13:56
  • 4
    Yeah, I do expect a lot. But you all are also awesome. Change can only begin if we know where to start. Being aware some words might be problem is a good starting point.
    – rene
    Commented Jul 11, 2019 at 15:08
  • 3
    "vocal minority" is often used in my cultural context as a pejorative statement. It is used to signify those with the loudest voices trying to bully their way to a solution when they are the minority. However, it is also used to sideline a vocal group who may or may not be the minority!
    – AJD
    Commented Jul 12, 2019 at 6:21
  • 2
    Controversial Answer of the Year: +17/-17 votes.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Jul 13, 2019 at 14:14

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .