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There's a subject I'm pretty good with. I like to share my knowledge with others through answers. Unfortunately, there's another user active in the tag who makes participation extremely frustrating. This user:

Moderators can probably find a great number of similar examples by searching through deleted posts.

From what I understand, duplicate questions are signposts. They help point the poster, answerers, and future readers to a centralized target. If the duplicate question contains answers, those answers often contain useful information or another way of looking at things not covered in the target. I have been under the impression that this provides value to readers which should not be destroyed without good reason.

Of course, if a question has been asked many times already, the existence of the question and any possible answers very likely does not provide value, and deletion is well warranted. But the questions I have seen get deleted are very often not in this category - the linked targets (when they have something to do with the question at all) frequently only have a small number of votes/views/other linked questions.

Some of these closed questions are requests for solutions without showing what the user has tried so far. These questions are usually not high quality - that's what we have downvotes for. But using one's gold badge to close them (sometimes for an unrelated duplicate) just so one has the ability to delete the post later seems like an abuse of the system to me, for a non-♦.

The official help page says:

When should I delete questions?

Closed questions that are of no lasting value whatsoever should be deleted.

Before voting to delete, please check whether there are any good answers; if so, then the question should be flagged for moderator attention as a potential merge candidate. We don't like to lose great answers!

Also, be cautious when deleting questions closed as duplicates; they can serve as a signpost, directing users to useful answers on another question.

Now, it takes three users to vote to delete. One user cannot delete everything themselves. But, a vote to delete pushes the post into the 10k tools list, and if a post gets onto the list, in my observation, there's a halfway decent chance of the post getting deleted, regardless of the quality of the post or the quality of the answers. There are a number of users who visit that page most days and spend most of their delete votes there. With all due respect, I think many of them do not really take time to consider:

Is this post really of such low quality that it and all its answers should be removed from the site?

In contrast, I think some see it as a sink to use up their delete votes. In their defense, a significant majority of posts that appear there really are objectively terrible and don't deserve to remain, at least in my opinion - but there are no audits, it's not a review queue, and there is no real oversight on what gets deleted. If you frequent that page, most days, you will usually see quite a few posts on the list that originate from this user's initial delete vote. (I also have quite a few reasons to believe that some sockpuppetry is going on to make deletion easier - but that's a separate issue)

See this screenshot for an example. Do you see the pattern? The same thing on another day. And another. Many days, a long string of delete votes in that tag is common, without distinction between posts with value and posts without.

Lots of users with the privilege vote to delete every now and then and everyone makes mistakes occasionally. But these aren't just mistakes. This is a systematic attempted deletion of what seems to be most questions in a tag that one user doesn't agree with. (I'm not saying that all of the questions I've linked deserve to remain on the site, but in my opinion, a good chunk of them do. And I'm not asking for action on any of them in particular, it's only the persistent pattern that worries me.)

Is this sort of deletion behavior an acceptable use of one's privileges? It's been going on for many years, and has surely resulted in multiple thousands of questions getting deleted.

Personally, I see it as senselessly destroying value, and I think it serves as a serious chilling effect for any other would-be regular participant in the tag. A well-received, accepted, good-faith answer on an on-topic question has a decent chance of being deleted regardless, if the question happens to rub one particular user the wrong way. But there aren't any official rules against it, and some here may see deletion as justified if the one who posted the question has not included an attempt, or has a fundamental misunderstanding of how pattern matching works, or due to some other reason. What does Meta think?

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    Thanks for taking the time to write this post. I will just say that just by reading the title, I guessed the relevant tag... and I was right.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 3:29
  • 87
    My stomach sank when I saw the title, but reading through the post I have to say I'm impressed with how you've presented the question; it can be hard to discuss the actions of a specific user while also keeping the tone civil, and open to feedback. Well done.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 3:33
  • 65
    I highly recommend readders to, please read this meta post once. Should duplicates be deleted? In general, no: most duplicates stay around. Having multiple copies of the same question with different wording is useful as search fodder, because people looking for an answer may use different wording too.
    – anubhava
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 5:01
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    too localized, and thus can not be helpful to anyone is a slippery rope with every reader having a different opinion on that. We can never guess how a question may help a future visitor dealing with similar (if not same) problem, not to forget it's added SEO value. Keeping a dupe is fine if question has been answered already but deletion is unwarranted.
    – anubhava
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 5:20
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    @oguzismail I do appreciate the effort he puts into curating the tag as well as his useful content. There's no question that his answers are of great value. That being said, I also can't help but notice the pattern of deleting valuable content as demonstrated in this post.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 5:27
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    And what's up with the trend of minting socks to post in meta?
    – yivi
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 8:41
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    @rene I find it distasteful, particularly when it looks like a disguised call to arms. Also seems to have some similarities with questions posted by other users (both regular and socks) in the last weeks. I find it distracting. But in any case, I still think this is flag material, not meta material.
    – yivi
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 9:34
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    Don't remove the signposts! Thanks for posting this.
    – Pac0
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 12:37
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    @rene I can't speak for the OP's motives, but I can think of some reasons why a Meta post is useful in addition to raising a flag. The user in question, and possibly other users who engage in such behavior, may not know that what they're doing is controversial. Discussing this on Meta gives the community an opportunity to discuss whether such behavior is problematic, and a consensus might emerge either way. The users who do this might realize the issues, and change their behavior according to the consensus. Only raising a flag means the other users never even realize there might be an issue.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 14:24
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    @Larnu The post's credibility should not be affected by who the author is. I think this question, like any question, can stand (or not) on its own merits.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 19:01
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    @KevinB Which, I'd argue, is exactly why OP structured this post as they did; this entire post appears, to me, to be clearly phrased and structured as to not be an attack. Why go to this trouble of being so civil and in-depth if their purpose was just to attack a one-off user? They've already admitted that their motive was to avoid retaliation in a tag that they're active in, which seems very justified to me.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 20:14
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    @IanKemp How about that the fact that no one was named, can make this post general enough to apply to any similar cases? Also, you're arguing that the poster should just name themselves and take the backlash and just live with it, because.. that would be easier on you. I'm going to guess they also carefully considered the pros and cons of doing it anonymous and I do not see why they should explain their reasons to you. If you think that "why" is more important than "what", then I don't agree at all. We should not judge a post on who posted it.
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 10:35
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    Wiktor's behavior/reputation has actively dissuaded me from participating more in the regex tag, for fear of taking the time to research and write a good answer to a good question, only to have it closed/deleted out from under me. I mean, why bother?
    – MattDMo
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 16:25
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    I admit that I (a fairly high rep user) am afraid to post questions in the regex tag. My first question in that tag got attacked (and I deleted it). I was a ~30K rep user at the time. Since then I have felt that you needed to be really really sure you had an extra extra good and worthy question before posting one in the regex tag. (Basically, if a tag could be considered "unfriendly", then that tag is. If that level of caution and fear is what SO wants to foster on the regex tag (in the name of question quality) then it is all good. If not, a bit more friendliness may be in order.
    – Vaccano
    Commented Feb 25, 2021 at 2:18
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    @MisterMiyagi There's absolutely nothing wrong with deleting common duplicates. Those should be deleted. The problem is with deleting questions with good answers that aren't duplicates, or questions with good answers that are duplicates of very rare older questions without many votes or linked questions. Check out the links in the post again. I don't believe any of them fall under "common duplicate."
    – Broccoli
    Commented Mar 6, 2021 at 15:37

6 Answers 6

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I agree that questions that are duplicates should be closed. But, I find a disturbing pattern when somebody closes a dupe with a more general dupe and even not the correct tag i.e. suppose a person asks a question primarily in R tag with a regex on it, an the person who closes the question on a regex only tag, it may not be that helpful. I find multiple posts that I answered getting dupe tagged and then deleted with this way of closing. More disturbing attitude is when I find a similar question answered by the same person (may be next day or couple of days later). His prior actions suggest that he considers those questions not to be worthy for SO. When I dupe tagged the question, immediately he reopened it. It explains that the OP's concern is not really about cleaning the SO from those kind of questions. I am sure that moderators would take notice of that.

NOTE: I could provide many links to that, but then the identity of the person who does this will be revealed and I don't want to do that.

Update

After 8 months (Oct 15 2021)

  1. Is there any changes in the behavior?

    None

  2. Is the group still involved in deleting questions when others answer and then reopen when they themselves answer?

    Very much. I was surprised to see a dupe question getting reopened by the same group. They act as a group and there are evidence or here or here

  3. Is it okay to answer in regex tag without their approval?

    No. Because I find in many occasions even in the last couple of days, the same guys closing questions that are not remotely dupes as dupes while gleefully answering dupe questions.

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    The links in the question already identify a person pretty clearly. Don't see the point in beating around the bush. Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:03
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    @MisterMiyagi You are right. I didn't look at the links earlier. Anyway, I would say that one of the person in the link did deleted at least 20 or more questions answered by me in the past few month or so.
    – akrun
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:05
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    I completely agree with these observations. So many of my answers have been removed recently by same 2-3 users. Really astonishing to see so much (mis)use of the privileges. I am starting to wonder if we are still a collaborative platform or a custodian society.
    – anubhava
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:57
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    @anubhava I noticed that after a question (you also answered that) got reopened, we both got downvoted. I was thinking that we need approval from him to answer any questions whatsoever
    – akrun
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 18:00
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    eh, that's likely just the meta effect. There's not much good to come from blindly applying blame.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 18:13
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    @akrun, Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this one. Here is one more observation, if questions are reopened we may get or may not get downvote is one thing, but another part is many times specific tag removal will also happen(as a bonus) too, even tag is very much relevant for question, I am not sure OP has shared those examples or not but it wouldn't be difficult to find those examples too. Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 18:21
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    To your point about tags, it's interesting that the user in this case has a gold badge in several top-level language tags that they probably are not an expert in just because the [regex] tag was used and they are an expert in that one. JS, Python, C#, Java, PHP, and R... that's quite the feat if someone is a SME in each of those at the same time. Some have a lot of overlap, others... not so much. Answers not about regex in C#: 37. Same for JS: 23. PHP: 122. Python: 76. Java: 28. The user wouldn't have a gold badge in any of them without [regex], or even a silver in all but one of them.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 19:08
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    @TylerH It is easier get gold badge in any of the top languages (without actually knowing the language) if one is proficient in regex because the regex code is almost similar except some escape characters
    – akrun
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 19:10
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    @akrun Yep, that is an unfortunate flaw in the current tag system. Especially considering one can ask a question only tagged as regex.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 19:13
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    @TylerH One cannot ask a Question only in regex. The excerpt says " Because regular expressions are not fully standardized, all questions with this tag should also include a tag specifying the applicable programming language or tool." Not adding a language tag often gets the Question closed.
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 19:18
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    @KevinB Just from yesterday and today, links are a, b, c There are many, but since you requested, I showed some
    – akrun
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 23:40
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    @KevinB Because he tagged it to generic, non-specific dupe. It may get deleted if I don't reopen it while he answers the same questions and reopen more specific dupe tag
    – akrun
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 23:48
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    If people would just use the tools made available to them more often and more consistently this whole issue could be avoided. If you find a users actions problematic, as you clearly do here, raise a flag. If you find a post that you think es sun correctly closed, open it. If you find an incorrect answer, downvote it. None of this is new, we have tools to deal with it
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 0:18
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    @KevinB So first you doubt that retaliation downvoting happens. And after counter-evidence is provided you pivot to “yes but there’s nothing wrong with that”? It would be more convincing if you stuck to one argument. At any rate, none of the examples provided by akrun are actually incorrect (or low-quality) answers. It’s very hard to argue that they deserve downvoting. Commented Feb 25, 2021 at 9:33
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Not really an answer to this question, but something I think may be worth looking into:

What bothers me a lot more about these examples is that a significant portion of the deleted questions all have the same 2nd user casting a delete vote.
That can't be a coincidence, and has got to be coordinated delete-voting.

Frankly, I find that more concerning than a single user delete-voting duplicates he sees over and over again.

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    I raised a flag about coordinated undelete-voting recently, it was declined with this message: Given the number of undeleted posts on this site you can find any number of combinations of users that “collaborate” like that., so I guess coordinated delete/undelete voting is not an issue. Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 9:25
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    It certainly seems like just picking some cases where people voted together is meaningless unless contrasted against all cases where the two people voted. There is likely to be coincidental voting-together merely because people frequent the same tags or vote-queue at the same time. Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 9:37
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    Sure, there's likely to be some overlap, but this seems more than a coincidence.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 9:53
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    I guess the pool of people with delete voting rights that actually do cast delete votes is small enough to make it more likely that the same people cast delete votes on the same questions, they likely find them through a linked interest in a tag. Not saying there is no coordination going on, but it is that much harder to prove that it is not coincidence.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 9:54
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    Coordinated or not, this is a good heuristic to detect probable bad moderation.
    – Vimes
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:02
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    I totally agree with your observation. I also find a pattern in the persons who deletes it.
    – akrun
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:08
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    This is the "separate issue" I didn't want to elaborate on. I think this is something to leave to the mods, and the mods alone.
    – Broccoli
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:22
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    I'm not so sure. In any tag, even popular ones you will often find a lot of the same few users closing/deleting stuff. Those of us who use such moderation powers are, what, like 0.001% of users on the site?
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 19:02
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    Coordinated voting (of any kind - up, down, close or delete) is a very slippery slope. As a regular in the SOCVR chatroom (note that the actions in this question don't seem to have any connection to that), I am aware of some serious moderator and staff concerns about such activities. SOCVR, thus, has very strict rules. Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 23:06
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    @AdrianMole Once I got suspended for deleting my answer (even with 3 upvotes) and later answered as a new post. The moderator explanation was that I should have known then SO guidelines.
    – akrun
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 23:36
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    Both users that are deleting posts have high scores in regex tag. If you are following some tag then it is not unusual that same people make same (similar) actions on multiple questions. I don't think that fact alone is cause for concern.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 7:31
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    There are plenty of tags where only two or three >20K users are actively curating the tag. It's not unusual at all to have most tags be deleted (or undeleted) by the same two or three users. Even if one is always first, that might be because they are more actively following the tag than the other. I might look guilty of this too.
    – Erik A
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 13:14
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    @akrun The disciplined badge seems risky to get...
    – Red
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 15:25
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    @Thefourthbird what to do. Two days back, they did the same on one of the answers. When it got reopened, the answer was downvoted and I see the delete vote again. Also, I find that person even making a huge issue if somebody else answers on regex tag i.e. he at once removes the regex tag (even if it is written regex wanted) while I don't see him removing regex on questions answered by him. Anyway, it seems that we need to get his approval for posting on regex questions.
    – akrun
    Commented Aug 25, 2021 at 21:09
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    @Thefourthbird I do that too. Many others do that too. Why is it worth calling out? "Some 2 people active at the same time have similar vote opinion" seems hardly surprising. What about this are you calling out? Commented Aug 26, 2021 at 10:04
34

I often cast close and delete votes on regex questions (and answers) to keep the regex SO tag part clean, avoid having to re-type the same solutions time and again (sometimes several times a day) and easy to search for the regex solutions online without the need to go through several dupes before coming across the original solution.

Personally, I believe deleting every duplicated post is bad, and I never do that. Let me try to clear up my "moderating system" that is based on a single principle: I am only doing what others have been doing, certainly paying more attention to what others have been doing to my posts, since it is just more visible to me. I have been collecting the SO behavior patterns since 2015 when I started my active SO life (my profile says "Visited 2231 days, 2222 consecutive").

What posts do I close?

  • Regex explanation requests and any post where OP is confused with truly basic regex patterns (for the majority of them, there are even specific signposts dealing with that exact issue)
  • All questions with no shown attempt, with no efforts shown, where the answer is "use feature_name" (and that are usually answered in a "here-you-are" style) with a generic duplicate close reason (these include word boundary usage of several kinds) that is enough to solve the issue, usually leaving a comment with tips on how to proceed with asking. I agree I do not give the exact solution here, but the linked threads are fair source of knowledge OPs need to answer their questions March 13, 2021 update: as this behavior can lead to suspension, I have fallen back to the practice described in Should “Give me a regex that does X” questions be closed? and I vote to close an "Needs More Focus"
  • Questions about some very common, extremely frequent regex topic, where OP might even share some basic efforts, but the real solution is in most cases already present or there are posts that can be easily adapted to OP needs (mostly questions about phone number, number, email validation and suchlike), though some are still valid on-topic questions
  • Any post that has canonical dupe reasons (using variables in JavaScript, etc. regex, doubling backslashes inside string literals, using full string matching vs. partial string matching, etc.)
  • Certainly, exact duplicates (that I can find within a single Web search and two result pages).

What kind of closed duplicate posts are worth downvote?

Not all of them deserve downvotes. I used to downvote posts I closed automatically some time ago, but I stopped because I realized users should have a chance to show they are eager learners. However, I do downvote when

  • The duplicate is too frequent, and thus, "evident" (a basic search would have solved the issue and there would be no need to write an SO question)
  • The duplicate was basically about a typo, or "bordering on" a typo (again, OP could have solved it with a tiny bit of extra attention)
  • OP does not even try the solutions provided in comments (I often post the solutions), or/and behaves in an "emotional" way

Deleting a post is necessary when

  • The post is misleading: when the answer is not actually the right solution even if it is accepted, almost all typo questions when there is no real problem, etc.
  • The post is a duplicate of a very frequent and evident regex issue (some dupe reasons contain a hundred and more linked duplicates, and there is no risk losing value for SO when removing them), including number, phone, email, URL validation questions and the like
  • The post owner did not put effort into solving the issue, or if that effort was truly insuffucient and was meant to disguise a pure code request.

When not to delete and even upvote duplicates?

  • I never delete highly upvoted duplicates with long history, and even cast reopen votes in case I come across them
  • When the question is related to a non-evident issue and the question is asked in a nice way, with code examples, test cases and explanation of OP efforts
  • When the question is actually a duplicate of two SO threads (usually, they are still about very frequent issues, but the fact two links are required makes the current question a nice-have)

Note I use the terms "evident" to describe a simple and frequent issue with broad SO coverage, and do not mean that something should have been clear to OP prior to asking a question.

Now, it must be easy to understand the reason behind those closures/deletes listed in the question. This is not done to make anyone feel frustrated. If you think the duplicate question is unrelated, I assure you there was a reason. If you disagree, let me (or a person who closed the question) know via a comment, and if you have a point, the post will be reopened. If an answer is unique and is valuable, it is great, but what would you say to the identical XX valuable answers? Removing one or two (no, not all the threads I close and cast delete vote to get actually removed) does not harm anyone and SO either. In my opinion, this is in line with the official help page you quoted.

By the way, it is not true that a close reason with few votes is not a good close reason: some answers with just one upvote are worth 100 votes, they are simply not visible to others due to various reasons (poor title, or vice versa, too good title that people usually do not even think of to search for).

I disagree that "power" users should not use gold badge to moderate the corresponding tags: that is the purpose of gold badges. More, there is no problem with hammer-closing: any three users with reopen votes will reopen the question. Believe me, if the question was closed by mistake, it happens within minutes.

Our colleagues who frequent the 10K tools page do a great job keeping this place clean. Again, they are just human beings who can make mistakes. We all do. So, there is an undelete tool there, too. Don't you think it can also be perceived as another "sink to use up their undelete votes"? In my opinion, this system works in the end. If there are any disputes, I rely on moderators' final say.

I agree "it is not a good thing there is no real oversight on what gets deleted". Still, there is a list of recently deleted and undeleted posts at least.

I am not sure what "deletion behavior" that's been "going on for many years" you mention, my deletion behavior has been the same all the time I obtained the privilege. It is also easy to "copy" my close/deletion pattern if you

  1. want to keep my preferred tag as clean as possible
  2. try to keep an eye on as many posts in this tag as possible (sometimes, just browsing a question after question).

I want to also note that I also care to delete the questions I answered that turn out evident duplicates, see this answer, or this post, for example.

Now, after I wrote all this, I come to think I am overthinking it a bit, and probably mislead others with my decisions. I admit I have been obsessed with "aggressive cleaning" approach, but that was done in good faith. If this thread clears up best practices that would be real added value to the community.

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    Stack Overflow has always been a free coding service. Most posts contain code and it's free. Also, only curators care for Question author effort. No one else does. Not people trying to find a solution to a similar problem. Not people actually answering the posts.
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 1:03
  • 42
    I really appreciate your willingness to discuss things. Discussion and consensus is good. You say it is not true that a close reason with few votes is not a good close reason... they are simply not visible to others due to various reasons This is exactly what having a few visible linked questions will help with; deleting otherwise reasonable duplicates will result in the good target being harder to find. Dupe closing such questions is great, to link them together. But attempting to delete them afterwards, as is done, sounds like it defeats the purpose..?
    – Broccoli
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 3:09
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    Your system sounds very much like my system. We don't need to keep everything, because sheer amount of similar questions and answers makes it almost impossible to find good answers on your own without asking new question.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 7:41
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    Awesome write up and great moderation in a popular tag. There is one thing I ask you to reconsider or clarify and that is this reason in the when to downvote paragraph: OP does not even try the solutions provided in comments (I often post the solutions), or/and behaves in an "emotional" way. That reads to me that you vote based on the user, specially to send them a signal. I honestly believe downvotes are not meant for that. Can you elaborate a bit how the OP influences your moderation decisions? My stance is that it shouldn't influence your moderation.
    – rene
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 8:12
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    @Scratte: People considering whether to spend their time writing an answer often do care about question-author effort when the question is relatively simple / basic / boring. If it's an interesting question that's worth having an answer to, I might write up an answer even if the author hasn't shown much effort, if I know it's not trivially answered. But for homework copy/pastes and similar garbage, most people skip answering or only give a hint in comments. (At least in lower-traffic tags like [assembly]). If we answered every no-effort question, the floodgates would be open even wider. Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 8:24
  • 28
    @Wiktor: you argue that deletion can be undone with undelete votes. That's true, but it's much rarer because deleted questions don't turn up in searches as easily. IDK how long they stick around for Google (which is what I usually use to find duplicates), but I rarely hit deleted questions when looking for dupes. (Of course, in tags I frequent, deletion of questions with any answers is pretty rare.) I don't think "someone will undelete" is a strong enough argument in favour of deleting unless you're pretty sure. True you don't have to be totally certain, it is reversible, though. Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 8:36
  • 28
    "OP does not even try the solutions provided in comments (I often post the solutions), or/and behaves in an "emotional" way" Do not vote based on OP's actions! Voting is about the content not the person who authored the post. OP's actions are irrelevant in judging the usefulness of the post!
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 13:02
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    @Dharman OPs actions are relevant in the context of comments. If several comments are made (which request clarification), but they're not answered and met with hostility, a post that otherwise could be improved can't be clarified and that's a reason I tend to downvote posts too. Comments on main are meant to improve or clarify the post, you could argue that if comments were needed you should've downvoted immediately, but I tend to wait a bit for a response and don't downvote if the response is satisfactory.
    – Erik A
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 13:20
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    @rene I would like to add to that I see (and have experienced personally) answers to such questions being downvoted without fail. Almost every answer to these questions is given a downvote before the question is deleted. Regardless of whether the answer is right or wrong. This indicates the user is in the habit of "punishing" users for answering questions they deem to be duplicates and not necessary for the site. Obviously we cannot tell people how to vote, but do you think voting on answers based on the merits of the question makes sense to you?
    – cs95
    Commented Feb 25, 2021 at 2:49
  • 25
    @ASh Did you look at the many examples of invalid close votes that the OP provided? I appreciate Wiktor’s work at cleaning up. It’s thankless work, and it’s a lot of work (like you say, it’s an uphill battle). But that does not excuse lack of care, and many of the close votes really are completely inappropriate. This isn’t a rare occurrence, it’s unfortunately frequent. Commented Feb 25, 2021 at 9:15
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    @KevinB My disagreement is neither here nor there. There are rules for close votes, and the examples listed in the question blatantly violate these rules, even under a generous interpretation. This isn’t even remotely subjective. Commented Feb 25, 2021 at 15:23
  • 13
    @KevinB I can’t prove it “behind a reasonable doubt”, but I absolutely don’t need to, because that would be a ludicrously and lopsided standard of evidence. In reality, there is clearly a very broad agreement amongst the commenters and voters here, and that’s really all that matters. Commented Feb 25, 2021 at 15:29
  • 29
    Using your gold-tag dupe-hammer on "All questions with no shown attempt, with no efforts shown, ..." is a very dangerous occupation (if, indeed, that's what you meant). This is paramount to abuse and could result in either: (a) your suspension; or (b) removal of the dupe-hammer privilege from the system completely. This has been discussed (in a different context) in SOCVR, and a moderator there suggested the (a) option would be one of their possible responses. Commented Feb 25, 2021 at 20:53
  • 27
    Using a "RTFM" target as a duplicate is both lazy (cast the correct close vote and allow two others to support your call) and just plain wrong. Commented Feb 25, 2021 at 20:56
  • 28
    I have read two full tutorials. I've read the RTFM canonical. I'm going through the "Advanced Regex-Fu". I also found a joke-regex that finds the string "42". I understand it all except a small detail. But as you've written, any post that asks for an explanation is closed using the RTFM, which I already read. And there's no way to show effort on my own brain-activity on the matter. So now.. I'm asking people in chat instead. Do you honestly think this is good for Stack Overflow?
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 2, 2021 at 16:40
24

You know what, I have bigger problems with the other part, saying that two questions are duplicates when they aren't or are just related questions. For the deletion of duplicates... I really don't find most deletions as irremediably harmful, for a simple reason: even if this user tries to do that, it will be fighting against every asker of Stack Overflow, which is a tall order even with some coordination.

I'm not against deletion of most duplicates, as there's a practical limit of ways to ask useful signpost questions without running into irrelevant keywords due to humans failing to accurately describe what they are asking about. I prefer people finding relevant information due to using the correct set of keywords than a crapshoot where you find questions where someone described something that happened to use the same keywords, but in a different context.

For me, the first issue is far more important and preponderant than the latter, as in the latter would be a lost battle of attrition against the internet, which would sort itself out (aka without intervention of anyone). The other doesn't have this characteristic and as it's very difficult to convince others that two questions are actually not duplicates of one another.

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    Totally agree. Closing all questions that ask for a regex as RTFM doesn't sound great. Even worse when the question doesn't even ask for a regex but one of the possible solutions is "use a regex".
    – BDL
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 14:52
  • 5
    I'm not sure I've seen a "close as duplicate" that was actually a duplicate. I think the false cases greatly outweigh the true ones.
    – Vimes
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:06
  • 14
    Why is it difficult to convince others that two questions are actually not duplicates of one another? I've found that some users are just hasty with their duplicate flags and they're not taking the time to read and understand the questions. It seems like it should be easy to have them actually read the questions they had just skimmed over previously, and then discover that they're not duplicates Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:06
  • 13
    @KyleDelaney because we fallen in the false premise that two questions are duplicate merely because one of the answers potentially answers the other question. Which leads us to absurd situations where if the answer didn't exist then they are suddenly not duplicates (!?).
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:28
  • 1
    It's often hard to realize that your view on a particular matter might not be correct
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 21:30
  • @KevinB which view?
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 21:36
  • 5
    Any view, not any one particular one expressed here. Mostly a reply to Kyle. Simply telling a user who dupe closed a question that it isn't a dupe, isn't a very strong case for it being not a dupe. for example, your assertion that two questions aren't duplicates just because one's answer completely answers the other, isn't one that is held by everyone who participates here
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 21:38
  • @KevinB well, I'm not saying that mine is right, but at least doesn't lead to a ridiculous situations that I described. I reject that PoV, not just because of that, but allows other more ridiculous affirmations.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 21:41
  • BTW @KyleDelaney , you might want to read the reply above mine.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 21:41
  • 1
    I find (not in the regex tag, which I don't look at, but elsewhere) that questions are closed as dupes if the answer is a dupe. But I feel that's wrong and misleading, especially when you consider how people are brought to SO via search engines: They're typing in questions, not answers. If they could have typed in an answer they'd have no problem, would they? So the question needs to bring up a hit on SO. I would go so far as to say that many (much more than a few) "closed as dupe" that I've seen are like this.
    – davidbak
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 14:28
  • 2
    @davidbak eh, i'm not so sure on that... but i'll admit my experience looking for answers isn't necessarily high. from my experience, the answers often have the keywords I'm searching for rather than the questions.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 15:29
  • @KevinB - yes but I frequently see questions from people who don't know the proper search terms. I usually just comment with the correct search terms in that case. E.g. - you want to know how to take a generated file and modify it further before you compile it? The proper search is "makefile chain rule" - not obvious to the person asking about how to "fix" generated code! And thus, a question/answer about "makefile chain rule" is not likely to be found by him or someone with a similar problem. (I just answered - with a comment - that one yesterday.)
    – davidbak
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 15:42
  • @davidbak If people fail to search their problems with the proper terms, dupe-closing their question to serve as a signpost to the proper answers seems to exactly match the purpose of duplicates. Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 18:11
  • 1
    @MisterMiyagi - I thought the issue we were talking about is going the extra step and deleting duplicates? At least, that's the original question. This particular answer is a little different. Still, this answerer says he prefers people to "use the correct set of keywords". But my point is that this business of programming is so full of specific technical terms that frequently there's no way to know a priori the "correct set of keywords".
    – davidbak
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 18:12
  • I should also add - I can nearly always find the correct set of keywords within five minutes of posing questions to a search engine and looking at snippets and refining. A search process with a search engine. But it is sadly totally obvious that the fast majority of SO questioners - initial questioners - never bother with a search engine and don't do that kind of research before asking their question here. And that's apparently fine with the site, so I'm okay with it, but it means that they don't know and won't find out for themselves the "correct set of keywords".
    – davidbak
    Commented Feb 26, 2021 at 18:18
20

Disclaimer: I'd rather not discuss the specific user, or their deletions. This answer's focus is on the rationale behind why a user may vote to delete questions after marking as a duplicate and what actions another user could do if they notice this behaviour.


I have to admit that I often also vote to delete a question after marking it as a duplicate.

My reason is that I never spend longer than 5 minutes searching for a duplicate and if I can find a duplicate within those 5 minutes then it really doesn't need another signpost. Instead, what often happens is users find a way to still post an answer to the already closed question and thus posting either rehashed information or posting an answer that should be added to the duplicate target.

What to do when one person tries to delete every duplicate?

If you really want to, flag a post for moderator attention, leave a note explaining why it's flagged and then leave it at that so the moderator(s) can decide if anything further needs to be done.

7
  • 16
    Regarding the first part of your answer: While I don't disagree that a target being easy to find is a good indicator that the duplicate might be unnecessary, SMEs can often spot what the question is actually asking, and if they are familiar with the existing content, they might find a target very fast. Here is a very good example where the target was found in 2 minutes, but where the dupe is nonetheless an excellent signpost and should definitely not be deleted (see the comments). I'm sure you're aware of similar cases in tags you frequent.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 20:35
  • 3
    @cigien - Absolutely, I definitely don't vote to delete every question closed as a duplicate, that is mainly reserved to those "My debug/log/terminal told me exactly what the error is, how do I solve it?" questions and other questions with a blaringly obvious duplicate
    – Sayse
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 20:40
  • 4
    Yes, there's no doubt that many (most) duplicate closures should be deleted. However, you've answered a question which contains a long list of duplicate closures that arguably don't fall into this category (many of the closures are with targets that are not obvious, or are RTFM targets). Given that context, your answer seems a bit misplaced.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 20:50
  • 2
    @cigien - Yes admittedly I was unsure if this should just be a comment and I didn't look into many of those examples because a singular users actions don't interest me and chose to focus on the OP's question whilst adding possible rationale why a user may seem to be deleting more than the average person
    – Sayse
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 21:06
  • 1
    Ah, I see. That's fine, it's a reasonable answer; it just seems like you're directly addressing the OP's question. Perhaps you could begin the answer with something like, "I'd rather not discuss the specific user, or their deletions, but in general ...". That would convey what you're trying to say without it being confusing I think.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 21:11
  • 4
    That a subject matter expert can find a duplicate in 5 minutes is not even close to being the reality for lots of users. I can find a solution in 5 minutes for lots of Questions. That doesn't mean they're simple or that it is easy. It's just easy for me.
    – Scratte
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 22:54
  • 4
    @Scratte - Its a relative amount, 5 minutes in a subject where im a "subject expert" generally seems to equate to an hour or two of research at most where I'm not well versed . Yes there are lots of times when I can instantly find the solution by "cheating" and googling the exact duplicate the op is asking about but other than that for the most part I try to stick to only searching using words found in the OP's post and I still find a lot of duplicates. You'd be amazed at how many you can find by just using the question's title to search with
    – Sayse
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 8:28
-32

You raise a custom flag, explaining the behaviour and the pattern.

If that flag gets declined, and you believe that doing so was incorrect, then you post a question on Meta.


To address the manner in which this question was posed:

You apparently felt strongly enough about this topic to make a Meta post about the behaviour of a particular Stack Overflow user, yet you aren't willing to put your name against that post or name that user. Why not? What benefit do you, or they, receive by having identities obscured? What benefit do Meta users obtain by being forced to follow breadcrumbs and draw inferences? What if people get lost and draw the wrong inferences? I'd expect a level of identity obfuscation if you were reporting on something truly egregious, but this isn't it.

The only way that a truly collaborative community like SO's curators can survive and thrive is by being as transparent as possible. That means you have to be willing to call people out for what you see as bad behaviour, and you yourself have to accept there's a possibility of being called out.

Yes, cultural norms or your personality or past reception on Meta might discourage you from calling someone out directly, but as long as you are doing it from a place of honesty, there is no reason to be afraid of directness. It would certainly have saved everyone involved a lot of time and effort in this case.

I personally have rubbed quite a few people on Meta up the wrong way, some of whom are moderators, and while I regret that - I do try to be civil with them, and certainly would have no issue being called out by them. Because I know that regardless of how I would feel, I am part of a community, and I trust that community to do right by its members - because as far as it's able, it always has.

Ultimately there's nothing wrong with what you've done, it just hinders our ability to determine what the issue is, which hinders our ability to discuss and form consensus on what, if anything, should be done. Time is a precious resource on Meta as much as SO itself.

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  • 38
    Does the identity of the reporter have anything to do with the reported behavior? How would your answer differ if I, a moderator or some random newby on the site would have written the same post? In addition, you don't even try to answer the question in place. Flagging only makes sense when you know that the behavior is wrong, when you aren't sure if it is correct, you post on meta.
    – BDL
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 16:40
  • 20
    The user you have to check is the reported user, not the reporting user. The reported behavior is baked by a ton of links to questions. Why would you need the real name of the meta post author for that? We could discuss if naming the reported user in the meta post is a good idea (imho, it's not), but why do we argue about the identity of the reporter?
    – BDL
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 16:46
  • 9
    @BDL My mistake - why does the identity of the reporter matter? Nominally it doesn't. But the fact that the reporter is in this case, obviously a high-rep user with high activity in the listed tags, who is purposefully obscuring their identity, makes one consider their motivation for raising this issue.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 16:49
  • 24
    Given the latest problems with backlashes on the main site after posting meta questions, I also wouldn't post a potentially controversial question with my usual account. The author of this post certainly had enough of that. And then again, even if the author of the meta post would have a long going war against the reported user, would it make a difference as long as the meta post is written in an civil way?
    – BDL
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 16:54
  • 19
    I admit that the reason is selfish, I wish I didn't feel it necessary to avoid retaliation.
    – Broccoli
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:18
  • 19
    I am a regular contributor in the tag. Closure timestamps for questionable or uncommon duplicates are very frequently correlated with downvote timestamps on useful, correct answers. Yes, one shouldn't assume to know who is voting - but when you can see it happening not once, nor 10 times, but hundreds of times (not just for me, but for most top users in the tag), a picture starts to form. I do not want someone who visits every question who I believe downvotes answers at the drop of a hat to acquire an intrinsic bias against my posts when I post in the tag in the future.
    – Broccoli
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:18
  • 5
    If they truly believe all these questions aren't useful, that's their opinion to have.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 17:21
  • 6
    @KevinB That's not exactly right, unless you literally only mean opinions, which everyone is welcome to. If you're referring to the act of casting delete votes, then one's reasons are relevant, and users shouldn't really be casting those votes just because they feel like it. Especially when there is consistent pattern to the votes being cast, as outlined in this question, the reasons behind the votes matter a lot, and users should be willing to explain them. Perhaps they are casting those votes based on a misguided sense of which questions are actually useful, or not.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 18:14
  • 6
    @KevinB I'm not sure what you mean. When delete votes are cast, there's no specific reason associated with them (as there are for close votes). Posts are deleted because they are not useful, and I'm suggesting that there might be a misunderstanding/disagreement over which posts are useful, or not. And I didn't say there was anything malicious going on. Frankly, I don't particularly care if there was malice or not; if there are issues with the voting pattern of a user, that should be addressed, regardless of how pure, or otherwise, their motives might be.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 18:21
  • 6
    @KevinB It's our job, as a community, to figure out what is useful, and discussions are the only way to achieve that. Your comment "If they truly believe all these questions aren't useful, that's their opinion to have." seems to me like you're suggesting that there's not much point in debating opinions if they are sincerely held. If I misunderstood that comment, I apologize. If I have understood the comment, then I don't think that's a productive way of addressing the problem (which is that there's disagreement).
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 18:28
  • 6
    Right, and that gets to my point. We, the community, have the tools to act here. we don't need to call these users out to use them. just use them. Where's the problem? We have moderators for dealing with problematic users, we don't need to debate on their opinions or actions. They earned the privilege to use the tools they are using just as we have.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 18:31
  • 9
    @KevinB That's an interesting POV. So you think it's preferable for users to duke it out among themselves, instead of even trying to address the issue via a discussion? I'm not sure that's the ideal way for multiple curators to be spending their time or votes, i.e. basically undoing each other's work. Some of that is bound to happen, but it seems worthwhile to reduce that when possible. Regarding moderator action: there's nothing for a moderator to do unless there's a clear violation, which doesn't seem to be the case here; it's more a systematic pattern of voting that could be a problem.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 18:40
  • 6
    @KevinB Sure, there may be multiple (and even more) productive ways of having the discussion. I'm only pointing out that is a perfectly reasonable way to do it. Note also that this question is very much about a particular tag. Also, while it is singling out a couple of users, it's worth mentioning that those few users are responsible for a vast majority of the deletions (and other forms of curation) in that tag, and it would be odd to not even consider that very relevant information.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 18:59
  • 16
    There have been quite a few delete-undelete wars in the tag. Couple examples stackoverflow.com/posts/65949774/timeline stackoverflow.com/posts/65267099/timeline If you vote to undelete, others may simply vote to delete again later. Given the very large quantities of deleted questions that are involved, I don't think just continuing to leave the interactions as they are now is the right thing to do.
    – Broccoli
    Commented Feb 23, 2021 at 19:03
  • 8
    Which is why you modflag, @Broccoli, and leave it up to the moderators to figure it out and deal with.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 24, 2021 at 9:14

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