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From time to time there are questions which follow the scheme: I have 0 experience in language X. How to solve task Y in that language?

Today I stumbled upon such a question again. I close-voted it as too broad, commented that such questions shouldn't be asked and wanted to additionally add a link to https://stackoverflow.com/help/dont-ask. But after reading that help page I have the feeling that it isn't clear enough about that, especially for new users.

Can we add this explicitly to the above mentioned help page?


Update: It is not the text phrase I'm new which I'm concerned about; I'm concerned because such questions are typically too broad and don't show any own, reasonable coding efforts.

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  • 12
    This sets the expectations right: SO is the worst place to have 1-on-1 learning experience. You can learn something, but that's for your own effort assimilating the information. Its purpose isn't that.
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 12, 2018 at 21:46
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    but... How do i do X is explicitly on topic. Such questions are how do i do x questions. You can certainly downvote them if they're unclear/lowquality/poorly researched, close if they're too broad or off topic due to not having enough information or not being specific enough, but "how do i do x" isn't always off topic or too broad.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 12, 2018 at 21:48
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    Is the "without knowing that language" part what bothers you about these questions? That's just noise that needs to be edited out, along with "Thank you" and "Please Help"
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 12, 2018 at 21:58
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    It's the too broad and no code part which bothers me. Also I personally think this is not the right approach to start with a new language. (And I don't want to work in a company where people are doing that.) .. But it's not something I'm extremely concerned about. I'm just asking :)
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Nov 12, 2018 at 22:03
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    Only debugging questions explicitly require code
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 3:10
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    There's something related in help/on-topic which can possibly be modified (and kept where it is): "Questions asking for homework help must include a summary of the work you've done so far to solve the problem, and a description of the difficulty you are having solving it". This needn't apply to homework only... and the current phrasing allows for "I haven't done anything yet", so we should probably add something about "a reasonable attempt" in there. Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 12:48
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    @Dukeling but attempts are not required
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 15:45
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    @Dukeling how can an attempt be required if only debugging questions explicitly require code, and a large portion of the most useful questions on Stack Overflow contain no code at all?
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 16:35
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    @TinyGiant The whole point of this post is to make something explicit. The question is what that is - most people agree that "please write code for me, here are some requirements" is off topic, so how do we tell people that (apart from closing their question as too broad and downvoting it into oblivion)? Also, research attempts don't have to be code. Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 16:53
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    @Dukeling I don't agree that such questions have ever been inherently off-topic. I would say that such questions may or may not be too broad, unclear, or primarily opinion based depending on the question asked, but saying that they are inherently off-topic would be a disservice to the community.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 17:06
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    Largely what people dislike about such questions is when they ask too much (too broad), are vague or missing details neccessary to answer (unclear), or it's already been asked and answered many times before (duplicate). Notice that all of these are already reasons to close a question, with specific guidance that is useful to the question, not a nonsensical "We don't accept how-to questions, sorry".
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 17:10
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    @Dukeling Many of the top 50 questions at stackoverflow.com/questions?sort=votes look to me like they fit the paradigm of "please write code for me, here are some requirements". (If you count writing a Git command as writing code, then make that a majority of those questions.) Do you actually think most of them deserve closure? That they deserve an exception from the rules? Or that I am misinterpreting what "please write code for me, here are some requirements" means? The latter would be most interesting, since it lets us drill into what sort of question you really object to.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 17:20
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    Homework questions are treated as any other question. The idea that they should be treated differently is mostly propaganda meant to say "We apply the normal rules, we just inherently don't like these questions so we're going to be more liberal with our application of the rules." The rules that are violated don't change because the question lists requirements or is a copy-paste of a homework problem, so our guidance and close votes shouldn't either. Use the actual close reason that applies and avoid handwaving and over-generalization.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 17:37
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    @Dukeling then maybe you might be better served by referring to such questions as overly broad how-to questions instead of "gimme teh codez" or "please write code for me, here are some requirements" as being inspecific and vague while discussing moderation can only ever lead to confusion and people reading things out of what you write that you did not intend them to read. My point entirely is that specific guidance is much more helpful than over-generalization, hand-waving, and vague statements, so we should provide specific guidance and use specific close reasons.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 18:29
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    I think what this question is really asking for is that the Help should emphasize that you're expected to have enough expertise in the technology you're working with that you don't need to receive a one hour one-on-one tutorial to work through every last detail of the solution. You need to know enough to be able to take an answer and work with it on your own time. But the thing this specifically asks for probably won't accomplish that, and I don't really recommend editing this question drastically enough to get at that. That said, I doubt SO would be willing to make any such change.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 22:32

1 Answer 1

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The thing is that the "don't ask" page has largely become bastardized and abandoned across the network. By convention, the place where you should look to see what isn't on-topic is actually at the "do ask" page of the Help Center.

Now, the issue of adding it there - would it realistically make a difference? Or do we want some wording we can use as a shield when people inevitably throw rocks our way about this? Would it be better or worse to just close these questions as "too broad" and just leave it at that?

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  • Thanks for your answer. I'm personally looking for something to point new users towards which they can understand. Probably I'm too naive but my hope is that it would realistically make a difference. That's why I was asking :) I'm thinking that because I've seen many of such questions which seem to have been asked in good faith. But yeah, I can't estimate how big the difference would be if we add that.
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Nov 12, 2018 at 21:56
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    Yeah, but this ain't a new endeavor. We've been gunning to try and get more information in front of new users for years now, and time has proven more often than not, people just don't read the Help Center in nearly the same volume we expect.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 12, 2018 at 21:57
  • I see. (and not being super surprised :) ) Well, I think adding one little sentence might still not hurt - if we want that
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Nov 12, 2018 at 22:00
  • I mean for the most part I'm a hard-and-fast "no" on this one. I just don't see what doing this would get us that closing and walking away wouldn't. I really want you to try and sell this to me since I could be convinced, I just need to be convinced...
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 12, 2018 at 22:01
  • Well, it's hard to convince you of the usefulness of adding a point to that page since you not seem to be convinced of the usefulness of that page at all. My argument is that even if users have been asked such a question once, it is simpler and more streamlined for people like me to point them to the issue with their question. It makes our life easier and the reaction of the community to such questions more predictable and unique. Another few good guys will read it before they ask their question, step back and prepare a better question showing some basic knowledge and code. do it for them
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Nov 12, 2018 at 22:14
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    If the "don't ask" is useless then why even have a "do ask" page. Quality control can only be achieved if the don'ts are more prominent than the dos. At this point just remove both let the shit-show continue to flow.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 16:36
  • @MonkeyZeus: I'd argue that the decision was made because the on-topic page was getting more traffic than the don't ask page. It doesn't mean the don't ask page is any less bastardized; it just means that the information is getting to as many people as it can. Removing both would be strongly counter to the goal of getting some information out there.
    – Makoto
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 16:40
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    Another thing. I expect many to most users who ask such a question to act in good faith. They have their problem and they surely think that SO is their solution. To have a nicely phrased standard response makes it more unlikely for them to get an unfriendly response, get frustrated, feeling misunderstood and so on. It can help giving them a better user experience on SO. Also they would realize that they are treated equal like others and that their problem isn't something uncommon. I mean once you understood what's the problem, it's very unlikely to be still frustrated about those who pt it out
    – hek2mgl
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 18:50
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    @hek2mgl if you want to prevent the frustration of people asking such questions, you should use the specific close reason that applies to the specific question. Nothing is more frustrating than over-generalization and hand-waving about how an entire category of on-topic questions is somehow off-topic.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 13, 2018 at 18:53
  • The "on-topic" page already says that questions about "a specific programming problem" are on topic. When we close a question as "too broad", we are saying that it does not meet that criterion in particular, and that none of the others apply. The issue with that has always been interpreting the word "specific". If we want to clarify there that "How to code task X in language Y?" is not on topic on its own, then that's where we need to make a change, but to my knowledge, we've never come up with any better wording. Commented Nov 14, 2018 at 18:51
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    @JohnBollinger "How to code task X in language Y?" Is not inherently off-topic.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 15, 2018 at 23:37

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