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Travel and tourism[edit]

List of Vietnam Airlines destinations[edit]

List of Vietnam Airlines destinations (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Fails WP:NOT, WP:NCORP.

Specifically this is a catalogue of the services of a company and as such is excluded under WP:NOTCATALOG no. 6 which states that "Listings to be avoided include [...] products and services". This is essentially an article entirely about run-of-the-mill announcements about services from a company, the equivalent of an article trying to list the locations of all Burger Kings or Pizza Huts. Any information that is not simply run-of-the-mill is already included at the Vietnam Airlines article.

Other headings under WP:NOT that are failed include WP:NOTTRIVIA (since this is a listing of rapidly-changing temporary company services that can change on a scale of days/weeks), WP:IINFO (since this is an indiscriminate effort to provide a complete listing of all services offered by a company regardless of significance, instead of summarising them), WP:PROMO (since this is effectively an advert for the company's services based on sources controlled ultimately by the company), WP:NOR (since this is the compiling of a list of company services to state things not stated in the original sources - for example that services to Russia are terminated now because they were suspended in 2022, or that services to Tegel were previously operated when the source only says that Tegel is now shut, and more broadly that all of these services are operating now when the sources are only true for the date they were published), WP:NOTGUIDE (since this is effectively a travel guide), WP:NOTNEWS (since this appears to be an attempt to create a list of up-to-the-minute services offered by the company), and WP:CRYSTAL (since nearly every announcement used discusses plans to start doing something in the future, and since dates in the future are included - for example announcements for October 2024).

WP:NCORP is also failed. Most of the listings here are unsourced, and realistically cannot be sourced from anywhere but the company website, press-releases, company spokespeople, or other sources controlled by the company, meaning that it automatically fails WP:ORGIND, because this information cannot be obtained from a source independent of the company.

That this is true can be seen from the sources provided in the article. Going through these one-by-one we get:

  1. The Vietnam Airlines website
  2. A Saigon Times article about a government announcement about restructuring of the airline that does not mention any destinations
  3. A profile in industry-press based entirely on information from the airline
  4. The Vietnam Airlines website
  5. An industry-press article based on a company press-release
  6. A local news story based on a company press-release
  7. A link to the Berlin airport website saying that Tegel airport has been shut down - the conclusion that Vietnam airlines ever flew here is not supported and basically OR
  8. An announcement about future plans in industry press, with comments from the CEO of Munich airport who are obviously also not independent of the airline as they are a business-partner of theirs
  9. An announcement in government-controlled press about flights to India, since Vietnam Airlines is state-owned and managed by a board appointed by the government this is not independent
  10. Announcements from the company about future plans relayed via Aeroroutes, which is a blog/industry press, and also not significant coverage since it so short
  11. Another Aeroroutes link regarding future plans
  12. A short Reuters piece about flights to Moscow being suspended in 2022 based on an announcement in Vietnamese state-owned press - not significant coverage of the topic of the destinations since it is so short and is anyway not reliably and independently sourced. Additionally this does not support the statement that flights are terminated now in 2024 so this is OR.
  13. Another brief Aeroroutes link about future plans
  14. A Condé Nast travel-magazine article based on a statement from the Vietnam Airlines CEO. Whilst other sources are also quoted in the article, all of these sources ultimately track back to Vietnam Airlines - the Airline Geeks article (industry press/blog) is sourced to a company press release, the Vietnam+ article is sourced to statements by the CEO, the Twitter source is from Vietnam Airlines Twitter account. There is no independent reporting here.

As a list split from a larger article, this still needs to have stand-alone notability per WP:AVOIDSPLIT, but it clearly does not since it fails the relevant notability guide for company products and services (WP:NCORP). FOARP (talk) 10:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete per the numerous WP:NOT violations listed by nom. Rosbif73 (talk) 06:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep You're making things up:
    • WP:NOTCATALOG says we are not "A resource for conducting business" with significant context and other examples indicating that products and services shouldn't be listed as a way to sell them. This is not a catalogue with the time of day these flights depart and what planes they use. To suggest we cannot provide a list like this with an overly broad reading of that would call for the deletion of all of Category:Lists of products.
    • WP:NOTTRIVIA says nothing about "temporary services". Where an airline flies is not "rapidly-changing". Sure it can change, but it's not that frequent or difficult to understand. We do not have any prohibition on content that can change or be updated, and that's the beauty of a wiki that we can do so. Articles are not expected to be static. As I say below, there may be possibilities for reform rather than complete deletion.
    • This is not indiscriminate. It's clearly defined as places the airline flies or has flown. It's not overly broad or difficult to define.
    • It's not an advertisement and it's patently ridiculous to call this promotional. It's perfectly appropriate to provide a straightforward list of a company's services. Is it a promotional advertisement to list a movie studio's films, a gaming company's products, a brand's flavors, or a train's routes?
    • This is not original research. Indeed, it's poorly sourced, but it's not full of things for which sources are impossible to find or that reach a synthesized conclusion. Sure, the citations for Russia is bad, but this and this are substantive articles about about the flights between Vietnam and Russia, including Vietnam Airlines' route.
    • This is not a travel guide any more than List of Amtrak routes is a travel guide. It does not tell people about how to contact the company or to make a booking, describe the costs and the airline's booking structures, review the seats and flying experience, or give what time of day the flights leave. It's misguided and undercuts your argument to call a simple list of destinations a travel guide.
    • This is not news. It's not original reporting, a routine report about an event only relevant the day it happened or written in news style, or a who's who. This is not something that changes day-in, day-out. It is not "up-to-the-minute" any more than List of Amtrak routes. Hey, the Chicago – St. Paul route just opened on May 21, is this bad to be "up-to-the-minute"? Why would it be a bad thing to be current? This is not something changing so much that editors are unable to keep up and have let it fester with outdated content either. Being cited to news is standard and does not make the list itself news.
    • This is not a crystal ball. It is not forbidden to describe something planned for the future. Saying the route is scheduled to start in October is neither speculation, a rumor, a presumption, nor a prediction. It is easily verifiable, and it's embarassing and weakens your argument to say the article must be deleted because it states a simple, sourced statement about something planned.
    • NCORP is not relevant. Vietnam Airlines is a notable corporation and this is about them and what they do, and this is an appropriate subarticle of the main topic. Being unsourced or poorly sourced is a cleanup issue, not necessarily grounds for deletion.
    • You make the poor comparison to listing Burger King locations. No, we don't need to list the 19,000 stores they have, but we do have Burger King products and List of Burger King products. Selling the products is the service they provide, and taking passengers to these airports is the service Vietnam Airlines provides. Maybe a simple table like this isn't the best way to present the information, but it's not inherently disallowed to have this content.
I agree there are issues with these lists, namely that they list destinations rather than routes. It could be more informative to say that they operate routes from Hanoi and Ho Chi Minh City to Sydney, and between Ho Chi Minh City and Bangkok, rather than simply that Sydney and Bangkok are destinations. There are other ways this could be restructured or merged, which is why the proposed RFC could be helpful, but I do not believe this violates NOT whatsoever. Reywas92Talk 13:45, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lists of Amtrak routes is a bad comparison - those are railway routes requiring permanent infrastructure to be built and maintained. An airline can schedule and re-scheduled from day to day and as such are ephemeral trivia.
NCORP is entirely relevant since it applies to goods and services of companies just as much as it does to companies (it literally says this in the first line: "This page is to help determine whether an organization (commercial or otherwise), or any of its products and services, is a valid subject for a separate Wikipedia article dedicated solely to that organization, product, or service"). The goods and services of a company do not inherit the notability of their parent company per WP:INHERIT, and a split-list has to has stand-alone notability per WP:AVOIDSPLIT. Every single source comes ultimately from the company itself which is exactly what WP:ORGIND is there to prevent.
Obviously I disagree with you other points but I doubt I'm going to change your mind on them, suffice it to say that a list of all the services of a company obviously falls in to what WP:CATALOG no.6 tells us not to include ("Listings to be avoided include [...] products and services") and reading WP:NOT any other way requires reading it to meaning something opposite to what it clearly states.
The examples you cite have a very straight-forward rejoinder: "What about X?".
I don't get how you can repeatedly admit that this is badly-sourced, not produce any examples of independent, 3rd-party coverage to fix that (Aviationweek is industry press and their article is based on a press-release, the VN Express article is also based on a press-release, and anyway only mentions the airline briefly), and then still conclude that the article should be kept. FOARP (talk) 14:55, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just because air routes can be rescheduled doesn't mean they are actually from day to day. Many international routes require regulatory approval, and it's not insignificant for a destination to be served as routes are important for business and tourist connectivity beyond just being a product on the shelves. Calling this "ephemeral" is nonsense. Amtrak does not even maintain most of its own track infrastructure, and it can also change what routes it provides and stations it stops at; how about List of Metrobus routes in Washington, D.C.? Again, editors are perfectly capable of tracking this because it does not in fact change on a daily basis. Flight frequency and timing details are more ephemeral, but we're not saying which routes are daily or biweekly.
If you don't think the split list has stand-alone notability, then I would recommend a merge and possible restructure. But I don't think this content needs to be separately notable when Vietnam Airlines is already notable and this is complimentary. It's disingenuous to dismiss sources that say "X airline flies to Y airport" – a very straighforward fact – as not being independent because the airline has also stated this, particularly if you're connecting anything from government-owned news to the airline.
Again, this is obviously not "A resource for conducting business" and it's ridiculous to suggest something this general without details about the flights themselves or the cabin experience is a forbidden catalogue; the airline is not using this to sell tickets. You are taking this out of context and reading this the opposite way, because it's no more forbidden to say "Vietnam Airlines flies passengers to Tokyo and San Francisco" than it is to say "Apple sells iPhones and MacBooks".
Some other sources include [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]. I didn't search in Vietnamese. Reywas92Talk 17:17, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment – Linking previous nominations involving this page:
–24 October 2015– Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pages in Category:Lists of airline destinations;
–26 March 2024– Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of British Airways destinations. Aviationwikiflight (talk) 22:34, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Khoubai[edit]

Khoubai (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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The article does not meet the required standards. There is nothing special about being an award-winning content creator on YouTube! There are hundreds, even thousands like him! Do they all deserve an article? Of course not! The article is purely promotional about the person. — Osama Eid (talk) 08:28, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Tourism in Antalya[edit]

Tourism in Antalya (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I've already copied the introduction into the Antalya article. This is a short article that doesn't have much scope for expansion as a stand alone article. LibStar (talk) 05:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Dr. Bro[edit]

Dr. Bro (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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I had double thoughts before finally agreeing that the notability of this article is very questionable. Firstly having many subscribers or views on YouTube doesnt credibly means the article is notable. There is nothing whatsoever credible about this article. There are some promotional contents in the article. For me, it doesnt meet WP:GNG, and such, I may decline in an AFC review. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 15:11, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 23:08, 17 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bent's Camp Resort[edit]

Bent's Camp Resort (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
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Advertisement for non-notable 12-cabin 'resort'. Sourcing is abysmal, and largely used for off-topic padding. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:50, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It isn't at all clear whet the supposed claim to notability even is. As a former logging camp? A camping ground? A place that runs events? A place in the same county as alleged Bigfoot sightings? Hard to tell... AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:49, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I added it to companies. The lead tells us it is a resort in Wisconsin. A resort is a business. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 22:39, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sirfurboy: Thanks, historically it is a place that has had the same name but its use has evolved over a century. Right now it is a campground that hosts major events and also has a lodge. When I went there last year I took photos of the music festival (on commons now) and I also wrote an article on the lake which separates the Wisc and MI (Mamie Lake (Wisconsin)). The photo in the Mamie Lake article is looking away from the lodge at Bent's Camp. I have been editing less these days but I hope to get around to developing the article if it is not deleted. Lightburst (talk) 23:29, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What are these 'major events'? Where is the evidence that anyone not seeking to publicise them considers them 'major'. And how can a 12-cabin resort host 'major events' anyway? AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:33, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am dancing as fast as I can. Lightburst (talk) 23:44, 9 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I take it this is the 'major event' you are referring to? [18] AndyTheGrump (talk) 00:18, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: I'm not seeing significant coverage in multiple independent, secondary reliable sources. TarnishedPathtalk 05:26, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Deletesee revised merge vote below In addition to the sources in the article, Lightburst gives 3 above. The first is really about Land o' Lakes, Wisconsin, but discusses Bent and does confirm that he created a fishing camp with log cabins and dining in 1896. However this is not signifcant coverage under any guideline. The mention of the camp is passing. The second link is not reliable in that it presents different information in different locations of the world. In any case it appears to be simply news about a restaurant (if you are an American consumer). The last link is an announcement. That is certainly a primary source. So we have nothing. No notability for a standalone article. Next question is whether a merge or redirect is appropriate. The most likely merge target is to the stub at Mamie Lake (Wisconsin). However I cannot see why that article subject is notable either, albeit that it would be considered under the much laxer WP:GEOLAND. I also considered redirect to Land o' Lakes, Wisconsin, as this is what the source above is about. However it is not really Bent's Camp Resort that is discussed there. Rather, it is Bent who would be of sufficient note for a mention. At this point, I don't see any benefit in a redirect that outweighs the disbenefit of Wikipedia promotionally mentioning non notable businesses. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 07:00, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This isn’t an encyclopedia article; it’s an advertisement with footnotes. Qwirkle (talk) 13:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This AfD has been canvassed offline by the nominator. It occurred on WPO in a thread titled "Crap Articles". The entry in that thread by the nominator says, "Bent's Camp Resort (T-H-L) Another masterpiece by Lightburst...". So it looks like this article will be deleted before I can add research about the history of the place; it would be nice to have this sent to draft or user space. If that cannot be done I understand. Lightburst (talk) 16:04, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am not seeing any sign of canvassing. Everyone who has commented so far is an AfD regular. But if you are saying there are sources that demonstrate notability, you only need to show they exist, and you have a week to do it. Deletion is a discussion, not a foregone conclusion. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 17:02, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sirfurboy I understand, thanks for your consideration. I have no desire to edit for the time being. This is not a "woe is me" post, but I have to admit to myself that I had enough of the project for now. Lightburst (talk) 18:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Brandon Thanks, You are right, and I am sorry that it reads like a travel guide. I did argue for WP:NEXIST but hunting down sources is not on my schedule right now. If editors think this place should not be on Wikipedia I have to accept that. Lightburst (talk) 18:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a travel brochure, this is an article about a regional institution that has been around since at least the 1890s. Carrite (talk) 05:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
THIS is an article from the Vilas County News of May 23, 1923 calling Bent's Camp the 4th oldest resort at that time and printing a photograph of it from the 1890s. Carrite (talk) 05:32, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HERE is an obituary for Austin Bent, son of Charles Bent, and for a time proprietor of Bent's Camp. It includes significant detail about the ownership of the business over time. Carrite (talk) 05:40, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
AND HERE we have a short piece from the Green Bay Press-Gazette on a petition over the expansion of Bent's Camp in 1965. Carrite (talk) 05:47, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
THIS is a very substantial piece from the Madison Capital Times on the Bent's Camp expansion controversy, which had drawn in a member of the Wisconsin Conservation Commission. Carrite (talk) 05:50, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - I've seen enough here, plus the footnotes showing in the piece, to get this one over the GNG bar. This is not commercial propaganda, this is a piece about living Americana, a historical site heading towards 150 years in operation. Carrite (talk) 05:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
AGAIN on the middle-1960s development controversy, this time noting that the case had gone all the way to the Wisconsin Supreme Court. Carrite (talk) 05:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
AND THIS PIECE, entitled "North Needs Financing to Save Its Old Resorts," puts the Bent's Camp development controversy into historical context, as indicative of problems being suffered by other fishing resorts of the region. Carrite (talk) 05:59, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. You may have demonstrated that a worthwhile article might be written about this, but what was actually written belongs on one of those display stands of shiny cardstock brochures about local tourist traps. Whether better sourcing makes this worth an article, or space in another article, is still an open question. Qwirkle (talk) 06:04, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hey Qwirkle we meet again - twice in one night. Can we can consider WP:NEXIST as demonstrated by the Carrite sources? It is late here but I can try to find time to add them to the article tomorrow. Or another editor may add them. Thanks for considering. Lightburst (talk) 07:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging Sirfurboy, Brandon, Qwirkle, TarnishedPath to consider the above. Carrite (talk) 06:06, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've struck my comment as this is all a bit too spicy for my tastes. Brandon (talk) 06:43, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Carrite on review of the analysis that @Sirfurboy has compiled below I don't see any reason to change my delete !vote, unless something changes. TarnishedPathtalk 08:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Thank you to Carrite who found sources to demonstrate WP:GNG. Like others here, I came from the ANI. Bruxton (talk) 06:55, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete fails WP:GNG. Mztourist (talk) 07:45, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - source assessment Carrite has spent considerable effort finding mention of this business in old newspapers using Newspapers.com. Many thanks for spending the time and effort to do that. On first glance I thought at least one of these was good: a review that talks about the camp. However, the depth of the review must be considered against the appropriate guidelines, and on that score, it does not meet WP:CORPDEPTH. The WP:NORG guideilines describe what is required for significant coverage in CORPDEPTH which says:

    The depth of coverage of the subject by the source must be considered. Trivial or incidental coverage of a subject is not sufficient to establish notability. Deep or significant coverage provides an overview, description, commentary, survey, study, discussion, analysis, or evaluation of the product, company, or organization. Such coverage provides an organization with a level of attention that extends well beyond brief mentions and routine announcements, and makes it possible to write more than a very brief, incomplete stub about the organization.

I have thus produced the following source assessment table for these new sources. Note that this is my own assessment only.
Created with templates {{ORGCRIT assess table}} and {{ORGCRIT assess}}
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor.
Source Independent? Reliable? Significant coverage? Secondary? Overall value toward ORGCRIT
Eagle River Review [19]
 Yes I have not checked. Articles such as this often are not independent, but considering its age, and the coverage of 4 such camps, I have assumed it is ok Yes No There is a single paragraph on the page subject (although the OCR splits it to 2), plus a photo. It has some salient information (not the oldest resrort, and the trail was cut through hardwood with an axe, built as a rendevous for lumberjacks). Looking at the CORPDEPTH guideline quoted above, it is clear that we don't have information here that can be used to write more than a brief or incomplete stub. Yes Worth mentioning here that newspaper reporting is a primary source, but this is not reporting so clearly secondary.
Wasua Daily Herald [20]
 Yes Yes No Passing mention in an obituary. No This one, however, is reporting Bent's death. A primary source for Bent, and the mention of the camp occasioned by the primary reporting.
Green Bay Press Gazette [21]
 Yes Yes TBH I am just assuming the reliablity for all of these. They probably are, but I haven't checked. No This is about opposition to development by the owner of the camp. Nothing about the camp per CORPDEPTH. No Reporting the protest. We would be writing a secondary source if we used articles such as this to build an article. It would be good history, but a poor encyclopaedic article.
The Capital Times 1 [22]
The Capital Times 2 [23]
The Capital Times 3 [24]
Multiple articles from a single source count together.
 Yes Yes No 1 Mentions one of the enterpreneurs in the clash as the owner of the business. That is all. 2 all we are told is that business had sagged. 3 The last and this call it historic, but that is all it says. What historic means here is, presumably, it has been there a long time, as nothing actually historic is told to us. 1 is reporting a clash between businesses and is primary, 2 reports a falling out which is primary news reporting, 3 is reporting a need for financing, which is primary for that, but as the financing is to save "old resorts", the question of whether there is a mix of secondary reporting there of the camp itself is moot as there isn't significant reporting of it.
Note that under NORG we need multiple sources, and each source must individually meet WP:SIRS. I don't think any of these do. If someone were inclined to accept the first, you would still need multiple such sources. So we are not there yet. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 08:10, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - Almost completely sourced by primary sources, and, as Sirfurboy has pointed out above, there aren't enough reliable secondary sources to meet notability requirements. Articles are only as good as their sources allow, and what there isn't reliable. Easy delete.--Panian513 20:42, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Looking at the material User:Carrite brought in hasn't changed my mind that this current article doesn't belong in mainspace, but has, I think made the case that the subject is a little more important than this article would show. Maybe not as a standalone, but as an expanded part of LoL or the Cisco lakes and so forth. Maybe draftify it for now? Qwirkle (talk) 21:14, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
    1. Wegner, Robert (2008). Classic Deer Camps. Iola, Wisconsin: Krause Publications. pp. 101–115. ISBN 978-0-89689-655-0. Retrieved 2024-07-14 – via Internet Archive.

      Bent's Camp Resort is covered on pages 101–115 of the book. The book notes: "Bent’s Camp remains a classic example of how man converted the antique, quaint lumber camps of the old lumbering era into romantic deer camps and recreational resorts of the early twentieth century; how these old time lumber camps became great enclaves of manliness and refined sportsmanship with a pronounced wildlife conservation ethic. Yet women also emerged into this rustic atmosphere as well, as we see in those two great deer hunting photos of Lizzy Bent with her classic Winchester rifle in hand and Henry and Ruth Voss posing with their trophy whitetail at Manitowish Waters—two photos shown in the Wisconsin Public Television Documentary "A State of Escape." Bent's Camp still exists today in all its magnificent splendor; in the interior of the camp with its beautiful, sapling wainscoating deer hunters still converse, tell stories, and in the North Woods around the camp reconnect with the ancient rhythms of nature."

    2. Hintz, Martin; Percy, Pam (2014). Williams, Tracee (ed.). Food Lovers' Guide to Wisconsin: The Best Restaurants, Markets & Local Culinary Offerings. Guilford, Connecticut: Globe Pequot Press. p. 252. ISBN 978-0-7627-9214-6. Retrieved 2024-07-14 – via Internet Archive.

      The book notes: "Dating from 1906, Bent's has the appropriate look of a bygone era, with its rustic decor including birch bark, held in place by cedar-bark strips, lining the ceiling and walls. Photos from the early days of Bent's Camp Jare everywhere, including on the menu. Almost everything has a homemade touch, from the vegetables grown on-site to the handmade pizza. Steaks and roast duck are specialties, with nightly specials. Pork chops, ribs, and yellowfin tuna earn raves from ravenous visitors, in from a day of fishing. Speaking of fins, Bent's Friday fish fry attracts a big crowd. Breakfast is served Saturday and Sunday with a Bloody Mary bar available starting at the wee hour of 8 a.m. Early every August, Bent's hosts its Northwoodstock festival, with live music all day and lots of food and beer. This self-proclaimed "hippie hoe down" is good for laughs, plenty of hamburgers, and several rounds of brew."

    3. Westervelt, Amy (2012). Michigan's Upper Peninsula: A Great Destination. Woodstock, Vermont: The Countryman Press. pp. 175, 178. ISBN 978-1-58157-138-7. Retrieved 2024-07-14.

      The book notes: "Just over the Wisconsin border, in Land O’Lakes, Bent’s Camp (715-547-3487; www.bents-camp .com; $$$, closed Tuesdays in winter) offers a similar sort of experience. A former logging camp turned into a popular fishing resort, Bent’s also features an outstanding restaurant, famous for its Friday fish fry, Saturday prime rib, juicy roast duck, and homemade pizzas. Located in the main lodge of the resort, Bent’s Camp restaurant features wood tables in a large wooden, open-beam interior decorated with Native American trinkets and local hunting trophies. The restaurant has its own dock for those boating in for a meal. The Friday fish fry is renowned throughout the region, so plan on getting there early or waiting awhile if you want to find out what the big fuss is about—it's worth it."

    4. Gauper, Beth (2005-02-13). "Golden Oldies - In the North Woods, Classic Lodges Are Remnants of a Vanished Era". St. Paul Pioneer Press. Archived from the original on 2024-07-14. Retrieved 2024-07-14.

      The article provides 233 words of coverage about the subject. The article notes: "Not far away, near the Michigan border west of Land O' Lakes, Bent's Camp began life in 1896 as a camp for sportsmen, brought over from the railroad landing in a wooden scow called the Tar Baby. A log restaurant was built in 1906, with interior walls covered by thick squares of birch bark held in place by cedar strips. Today, it's one of the north woods' most treasured spots. In the bar, old photos illustrate the resort's early history and a fire crackles in the stone fireplace; diners sit in a room lined with paned windows overlooking Mamie Lake or in the wood-paneled big room, under the gaze of a giant stag head. It's as far off the beaten path as it can be, but the specials when I was there were pure uptown -- Chilean sea bass with a langoustine cream sauce, duck confit and a delectable phyllo-wrapped lamb with gorgonzola, rosemary and garlic. ... Bent's Camp near Land O' Lakes, Wis.: This is a great destination even for a beer, ..."

    5. Bawden, Timothy (2001). Reinventing the Frontier: Tourism, Nature, and Environmental Change in Northern Wisconsin, 1880–1930 (PhD thesis). University of Wisconsin–Madison. p. 115. ProQuest 231652918. Retrieved 2024-07-14.

      The PhD thesis notes: "Charles Bent, a logger and lumberman from Oconto County, came to Vilas County in 1893 to homestead 67 acres of densely forested land on the shore of Lake Mamie, located 12 miles west of State Line (Land O' Lakes). The timber was so thick that a 40 acre tract produced a million feet of pine. Bent cleared some of the land in that first year and used the logs to build a main lodge and a few other buildings for his resort, naming it Bent's Camp. He eventually built his property into an impressive resort that included a main lodge, 12 cottages, a guide's quarters, stables, and ice and boat houses. The resort could accommodate 75 guests by 1915, which was almost twice the average at the time.

    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Bent's Camp Resort to pass Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#Primary criteria, which requires "significant coverage in multiple reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 09:35, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

1 and 5 of this list look interesting. Still trying to get the first book. The first is unavailable to borrow just now - do you still have it out? I need to read the last still. The middle three are not going to pass CORPDEPTH. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 10:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge to Mamie Lake (Wisconsin) - Cunard adds five sources above, and again thanks for the efforts on this. One of these, I suspect is a very good source, but I cannot review it, as below. I would be happy to admit that the hobbyist book, Classic Deer Camps is likely to provide significant coverage in an independent reliable secondary source. The others I discount as I do not believe they meet CORPDEPTH. To show the notability of a business there needs to be more than directory style information, or basic history. This then leaves us short of the multiple WP:SIRS sources we need. However, on Wegner's book alone, I think we, per WP:FAILORG, have sufficient information that there should be mention of the camp on Wikipedia. I thus have revised my above delete !vote to a merge. The stub at Mamie Lake would be the best merge target, and a merge there would improve that page, retain the information about the camp on Wikipedia, and provide an appropriate place to add other such information. My assessment of the sources provided by Cunard is below.
Created with templates {{ORGCRIT assess table}} and {{ORGCRIT assess}}
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor.
Source Independent? Reliable? Significant coverage? Secondary? Overall value toward ORGCRIT
Classic Deer Camps [25]
 Yes No indication that Wegner has any connection with the camp that would suggest this is not independent. Yes The publisher is Krause Publications (KP), which allows self publishing. [26], but I think that is perhaps recent. It was formerly known for hobby magazines and books. At time of publication (2008), KP were owned by F+W, publishers of special interest works. This author published a number of deer hunting books through KP. This would be a hobby book, but it is not clear to what extent it had any editorial review. It is, however, well put together. I don't see a reason to deny its reliability. There is clearly a whole chapter on the camp. I think this is very likely to constitute signiifcant coverage, but the book is hard to find. Open Library has it but with limited preiview. None of my library services have it, and the specialist hobby nature of the work will make it hard to track down. I tehrefore cannot verify that it has significant coverage - but, again, it is a likely pass. Yes
Food Lovers' Guide to Wisconsin: The Best Restaurants, Markets & Local Culinary Offerings [27]
 An entry in a food lover's guide may not be independent as sometimes the entries are placed for payment. I have not investigated whether this is the case here as it fails on significance. Yes It is a guide about the food in the state. It appears to be a reliable one. No One long paragraph about the food at the bar and lodge restaurant in a local food lover's guide. Other than the date (of the restaurant), there is nothing here to write an article from. Fails CORPDEPTH. Yes
Michigan's Upper Peninsula: A Great Destination [28]
 A destination guide will list all the torist businesses at the destination. Often the content is placed, or write ups may be provided by the businesses Yes No One long paragraph, mostly about the food. Apparently the fish fry is well reputed. The extent to which this is a secondary source is debatable. The information is written ain the style of a secondary source. It is information about the businesses, but it is occasioned by the destination guide which is a primary source inasmuch as it describes the tourist attractions at a destination for the purposes of being a guide to the location as it is.
Golden Oldies - In the North Woods, Classic Lodges Are Remnants of a Vanished Era [29]
 It is an article in local press. These may not be independent but I have not investigated this further as I don't believe this meets ORGCRIT Yes But local press. No 4 paragraphs, a touch more than the above food guide, although the flavour of this is similar. It speaks of it as atreasured spot. Plenty of people would accept this as significant if we were not looking under CORPDEPTH, but under CORPDEPTH it still does not pass muster. Yes
Reinventing the Frontier: Tourism, Nature, and Environmental Change in Northern Wisconsin, 1880–1930 [30]
 Yes Yes No All we have is the 132 words quoted and mention of some boats. There is sufficient information here to tell us when teh camp was created and its size, but nothing that asserts notability beyond its creation, nor the kind of in depth information envisaged by CORPDEPTH. Again, we stil have nothing beyond the information sufficient for a very brief stub, as before. We can say Bent built it, when he built it and how big it was, but we don't have the level of attention required to write more. Yes

Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:56, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Just to point out, I believe the "Classic Deer Camps" reference contains so many pages because most of those are photographs. HighKing++ 18:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi Sirfurboy, I've found if you click on the arrows beside the page number, you can still see the pages of the book "Classic Deer Camps" (except maybe the first time you click but click again and they're available). From reading the available pages, arguably there isn't much by way of direct in-depth information but in my opinion there is sufficient information provided in an indirect manner. For example, much of the content is about a family named "Clow" and how they used Bent's camp as a base, sprinkled among this text is enough information to provide descriptions of various parts of the camp. Similarly on page 108 it mentions other "characters" that "hung out" at the camp and on page 109 it mentions the early years of the 20th century when the camp became a public resort charging $8 a week for board but that come deer-hunting season, the Clow deer-hunting clan took over. And so on. I think your analysis is correct, the book meets the criteria. That said, we need another source before the topic can be said to be notable. Have to also mention that on page 215 of this book, it lists other sources of information for Bent's Camp, which you can see in Google Books view of "Classic Deer Camps" HighKing++ 16:28, 15 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's a discussion. Which of Cunard's sources show it is notable and is there anything you can add which might rebut the analysis of Sirfurboy which points out why 4 of those sources don't meet GNG/NCORP criteria? HighKing++ 09:56, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Further discussion of the sources brought forward during this AfD would be useful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vanamonde93 (talk) 21:04, 16 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Seoul Tourism Awards[edit]

Seoul Tourism Awards (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View AfD | edits since nomination)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Non-notable award which effectively serves the purpose of rewarding people who promote tourism in Seoul. The awards don't seem to have any significant coverage in third-party sources aside from trivial mentions and promotional pieces. There are no mainspace pages that link to the article either, apart from List of awards and nominations received by NewJeans. The article has only had a few edits made since its creation 15 years ago, mostly by bots. Aydoh8 (talk | contribs) 11:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep because of notability. I encourage you to search for articles about the award in Korean; the award has a ton of non trivial and non (at least it seems like) promotional coverage.
[31][32][33][34]
I can look up more upon request.
Also I'd argue the lack of activity and links is much more secondary to coverage. 211.43.120.242 (talk) 12:08, 28 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Star Mississippi 12:43, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 14:31, 11 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I'm seeing quite a bit of significant coverage on Korean sources, especially on some bigger Korean news sites like YTN like here [35][36] and Kyunghyang Shinmun (linked above). If anything, the Wikipedia article just needs some updating. MetropolitanIC (💬|📝) 02:56, 18 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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