Talk:Wolf salute
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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion
editThe following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:53, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
The wolf gesture is not a political gesture
editThe wolf salute is a part of the Turkic culture and mythology. Only because a far-right fascist group uses this symbol in Turkey doesn't means that it is political. It would be better if you truly did some research about this gesture before writing about, this way you're making people think that this is a political symbol, including yourself Berrenniz (talk) 06:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- The wolf salute represents MHP, Ülkü Ocakları or adjacent Turkist ideologies. Whatever the origin of the sign, it is clear who popularized it and what it signifies today. Notwithstanding if it is or was also used by some in other context, it is clearly a political symbol today. Sapiocrat (talk) 07:26, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- For Wikipedia’s purposes, the popularizer doesn’t matter as far as the nature of the hand sign—all we do is represent the coverage of the topic by reliable sources. Sorry if this is nitpicking, but I feel responses like these implicitly encourage original research and disputes about righting wrongs when these are antithetical, let alone unhelpful, to Wikipedia as a neutral tertiary source.
- All this with no comment on how Wikipedia ought to describe the symbol, since I haven’t done a review of sources. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 05:36, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
First Citation
edit"The referenced source does not label the symbol itself as fascist; but refers to the organization Grey Wolves who uses it as fascists. Kekolataaa (talk) 08:50, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Descriptors of the group Grey Wolves being falsely cited to define the Wolf Gesture.
editThe citation (p12) describes Grey Wolves as ultranationalist and neo-fascist, not the sign itself. Author uses said labels to describe Ultranationalist Groups who adopted the sign. Kekolataaa (talk) 16:10, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
This page is under barrage from Turkish ultranationalists. We must restrict it.
editThis page is under barrage from Turkish ultranationalists. We must restrict it. Immediately. Or, at least, as soon as possible. Gypsybores (talk) 17:38, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- I think it will be worse as Turkish fans vowed to all use the sign at the match tomorrow. Lets hope the admins do something Ilamxan (talk) 19:25, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed.
- Somoene must also stop the Turkish ultranationalist user Beshogur from editing further. He gives no reason and cites "personal attacks" Gypsybores (talk) 19:43, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
Paragraph removed without reason stated
editThe following paragraph was removed in rev1232778230, apparently arbitrarily, and hasn't been restored yet. Waiting on things to settle down before trying to get it on the page again. 2A01:CB08:8B3E:6B00:38F8:2E42:2134:C1E0 (talk) 23:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
In Japanese culture, this gesture is one form of the "Kitsune's window" (狐の窓), also called "Kitsune sign" (キツネサイン) or "Kitsune handsign" (キツネハンドサイン). The most widespread superstition associated with this gesture is that looking through the hole of the gesture would reveal the true form of spirits disguised as humans. These gestures are featured in Utagawa Kunimasu's Shimpan Bakemono Nendaiki (新板化物念代気) in 1829, and Nobuyo Kitamura's Kiyū Shōran (嬉遊笑覧), published in 1830, records their recreational use by children during the Edo period.[1][2] Kitsune's windows appear in modern Japanese media, such as in concerts by Japanese metal idol band Babymetal[3] and manga and anime featuring occultism or kitsune as characters. 2A01:CB08:8B3E:6B00:38F8:2E42:2134:C1E0 (talk) 23:18, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
This article is about "a Turkish nationalist and Pan-Turkic hand symbol", so that's not going to happen. Drmies (talk) 01:25, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Providing basic information about signs that people may confuse for the Wolf salute looks useful to me. Also if we're following your opinion, mentions of the meanings in satanism and "silent fox" must also be deleted. 2A01:CB08:8B3E:6B00:8104:A5B0:2E5D:F42E (talk) 06:30, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Indeed they have been. For the record, anything from a source that is not related to the article’s subject does not belong in this article. If no source connects the Turkic gesture with the Japanese gesture (or any other gestures), then Wikipedia will not connect them either. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 05:40, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
Content is irrelevant
editThe content of this article does not define the hand gesture itself and it solely focuses on a political aspect of it. Take a look at this from a wider perspective please, gray wolf is Turkeys national animal and everything symbolizes it cannot be just a gesture for political party. I do not accept and condemn the how this page is managed. This article is not informative at all this article is sided and biased. Ucanelma (talk) 01:23, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ucanelma, please make specific recommendations to change the language in the article from "A" to "B", based on what reliable sources say about the hand gesture. Otherwise, your comment will be ignored. Cullen328 (talk) 07:47, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
Content is irrelevant
editIf this article is about pan Turkic symbol. Than its title shall be under pan Turkic gestures. Or it should be pan Turkic salute. However, the wolf salute is not something only small group of pan Turkic people use it is not their property. This article is an a shame for wikipedia community this is highly biased and sided. I cant understand why 2 obviously closed minded people are directing this article?? Ucanelma (talk) 13:21, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- Ucanelma, can you please provide a link to a reliable, independent published source that verifies your assertion? Cullen328 (talk)
Incorrect and unsourced information
editThe article seems higly suspicious. After current contoversial events about grey wolf sign in European Cup, this article is edited for political purposes and it is full of distorted and unsourced information. 24.133.174.112 (talk) 22:31, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
- IP editor, please provide uour links to reliable sources that verify your sweeping assertions. The onus is on you, as it is on the other editors. Cullen328 (talk) 07:54, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- At minimum, it would be helpful to know which parts the IP thinks are non-neutral and errant. ꧁Zanahary꧂ 05:37, 10 July 2024 (UTC)
No sources for "throughout history"
editStyyx You reverted unsourced content without adding any reliable sources. There are no reliable sources that exist for this being some kind of ancient hand sign. There are not even any 19th or early 20th century Turkish photos of the hand sign, so it being this tradition that's thousands of years old is laughable. It's not a coincidence that the political usage of the hand sign began only after the CIA encouraged neo-fascism in Turkey during Operation Gladio. Because that's all it is, a neo-fascist hand sign. It has no historical or culture significance. Anything claiming otherwise without a reliable source must be removed. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:35, 8 July 2024 (UTC)
- I hate the sign as much as you but it is possible it did have some apolitical origins but was later forgotten after Islam and revived by Fascists. It wouldn’t be the first thing they revived either as they also revived the usage of Orkhon letters for aesthetics. Ilamxan (talk) 02:58, 13 July 2024 (UTC)
- ^ "「狐の窓」の方法は？妖怪が見える伝説は本当？危険体験も". MIKURI. 2024-02-07. Retrieved 2024-07-05.
- ^ "狐の窓". ピクシブ百科事典. Retrieved 2024-07-05.
- ^ "Metal Hammer UK issue 273". Metal Hammer. 2015-07-21. Retrieved 2015-08-14.