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Assume that you're knowing the PCB stack and the geometry of the conductor. You're computing the capacitance per mm and inductance per mm and also the total resistance of the conductor.

That means you can shape the transfer function from the eletrical RLC circuit:

enter image description here

To this transfer function.

enter image description here

So that means you got the transfer function of the conductor. Then you need the transfer function from the driver and the load.

Assume that the driver and the load is a logic IC. How can I find the resistance, capacitace and the inductace from them?

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3 Answers 3

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You are trying to model a transmission line as a lumped model when it's more complicated than that. The way you have to do it is you have to break your lumped model model up into discrete RLC "rungs" and chain a ladder out of that:

schematic

simulate this circuit – Schematic created using CircuitLab

Using calculus and FEA, the idea is to keep breaking the R, L, and C's down to the limiting case (dR, dL, dC) such that when integrated, will amount to your lumped model. You can model and simulate several stages to get a "feel" for the reflection by varying the RLC (which defines the characteristic impedance) and the termination resistance. The lower net would represent the ground plane. And the LR links represent the copper trace. The C's are the capacitance between the trace and the groundplane of the PCB pre-preg. Units will nominally be "per unit length". But you really need to use principles from transmission line theory to do this right.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ I understand! Each LRC circuit will be a transfer function. I could join all transfer functions into one. I know how to do that. But....the transfer function for the source and the load. Can I assume that they are 50 ohms? Because I see 50 ohms as some kind of a standard, if not something else is told. So assume that the Z_L load is known as impedance = 50 ohm. But that's impedance only. I need to find the C and L. And also, I need to find the Z_S source. \$\endgroup\$
    – euraad
    Commented May 30 at 22:33
  • \$\begingroup\$ @euraad to simplify the problem, consider a "lossless" transmission line - all the R's get set to 0 ohms so you just have LC rungs. 50 ohms is "standard" for a lot of coaxial cable. 75 ohms is popular too. 120ohms is standard for CAN busses. But the characteristic impedance doesn't have to be a "standard" impedance - its governed by the materials and geometry of the medium. You can get the impedance from the Telegragh equation. Each element is a Heaviside differential. Empirically, for a given LC value set, adjust termination R until there is no reflection. We call this state "matched" \$\endgroup\$
    – MOSFET
    Commented May 30 at 22:49
  • \$\begingroup\$ So each component, conductor, load and driver will have s heavy-side transfer function? \$\endgroup\$
    – euraad
    Commented May 31 at 6:53
  • \$\begingroup\$ @euraad In the limiting case if you transfer a pulse down the line. But if you were to brute force the analysis using discrete components in the model, the transfer function would be a cascade of of previous stages. It would sort of be like chaining passive filter elements. And each element adds a phase shift which will appear as a delay. If you simulate the 5 stage model, and probe each "capacitor" on an oscilloscope, you see the wave propagate through all 5 channels. \$\endgroup\$
    – MOSFET
    Commented May 31 at 13:51
  • \$\begingroup\$ @euraad But if you want a more in-depth answer, post a new question with the specifics. It's frowned upon to ask new questions in comments on this site. \$\endgroup\$
    – MOSFET
    Commented May 31 at 13:52
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Is it possible to simulate reflections by designing an RLC transfer function?

It's possible if you are content with the simplistic results obtained from a single LC low-pass filter.

However, it's better to cascade several LC low-pass filters because you obtain a progressively more accurate representation of what a transmission line is really like as per my answer to another question: -

enter image description here

Converting each stage to an individual transfer function and trying to mathematically cascade them is missing the point. In other words, if you make the assumption that input and output impedances are identical, then it's possible to derive the transmission line's characteristic impedance and, this is much more relevant when analysing what your delayed digital signal looks like when it gets to the load.

Assume that the driver and the load is a logic IC. How can I find the resistance, capacitance and the inductance from them?

The driver and load have nothing to do with the transmission line's characteristic impedance; it's cable or PCB tracks and, the physical dimensions dictate the characteristic impedance and therefore what the R, L, C and G values are.

Consider an ideal 50 Ω cable (no R and G), it's characteristic impedance is \$\sqrt{\frac{L}{C}}\$ so, you might have a distributed inductance of 250 nH per metre and, a distributed capacitance of 100 pF per metre. Take the square root of their ratio and you get 50 Ω.

The take-away summary is that to accurately represent a transmission line you need to use many cascaded LC circuits. And, you need to use many LC circuits if you are to ensure that the full bandwidth of your input signal is at least ten times smaller than the resonant frequency of a single LC stage. If you don't do this you may get unsatisfactory results.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ So analysis the load or the impedance by using transfer functions are not relevant att all? It's better to use impedance coefficient formula instead ? \$\endgroup\$
    – euraad
    Commented May 31 at 10:46
  • \$\begingroup\$ The characteristic impedance is king. From that, and for a given unmatched load, you can calculate the reflection coefficient and, reflection coefficient tells you how big the reflections are and what their polarity is. That is the route to go on this sort of problem. Of course, you can always use a circuit simulator (free these days) to save a lot of hard work @euraad \$\endgroup\$
    – Andy aka
    Commented May 31 at 11:09
  • \$\begingroup\$ I have SaturnPCB for computing the impedance, resistance and inductance of a via or track. But how do I find those for the input and driver output if it's not available in the data sheet ? 6 \$\endgroup\$
    – euraad
    Commented May 31 at 12:10
  • \$\begingroup\$ If it's not available explicitly in the data sheet then you have to work around the numbers a little bit. For instance, input capacitance is usually specified and, for most CMOS ICs this is usually the dominant input impedance. For the output there may be some data that gives a clue as to what the output resistance is @euraad \$\endgroup\$
    – Andy aka
    Commented May 31 at 12:28
  • \$\begingroup\$ @euraad if we are done here, please take note of this: What should I do when someone answers my question. If you are still confused about something then leave a comment to request further clarification. I'm not asking you to mark my answer as accepted of course. \$\endgroup\$
    – Andy aka
    Commented Jun 2 at 13:35
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Sort of. But understand the limited scope in which it applies.

I won't go into quantitative analysis here, also because I haven't used it myself, but it's probably not too material anyway, but more just to point out the equivalence. In any case:

There exists an equivalence, between a lumped-element equivalent network, and a network constructed of transmission line segments.

The equivalence holds, as long as the TL impedances hold -- that is, within range of one resonance -- in other words, maybe an octave, give or take.

When we construct planar filter networks of TL segments, they are typically only good to as much range. Outside that range, there are higher-order passbands -- unintended and maybe undesired, and may be poorly controlled (bandwidth, flatness, impedance, etc. all over the place). Further refinement of the trace geometry (little nicks and steps here and there) may be employed to address this, or additional (higher frequency) filters can be cascaded together so that their stopbands overlap to give strong attenuation overall.

We could model the 1/4 or 1/2 wave stub resonance of a TL segment, as a single (read: first-order) RLC equivalent, such as shown (give or take perhaps dividing the inductor into parts before and after the capacitor for a tee equivalent, or using two capacitors for a pi section, or tee with tapped inductor, etc.), and the mapping gives the damping factor equivalent to SWR or what have you.

This is only valid for the resonance modeled, so it's not very useful for purposes where we normally need to consider transmission lines: that is, where multiple harmonics of the signal, interact with multiple resonances of the network; broadband or time-domain. Particularly when few lines are used (such as between logic devices in point-to-point digital links), the TL analysis is the easiest route.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Do you recommending me to do...? \$\endgroup\$
    – euraad
    Commented May 31 at 6:53

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