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Home built before 1910. It is a 3-story structure with plaster walls and some BX, some cable and a lot of knob and tube. In the hallway on the second floor is a fuse panel for that floor and some of the overhead lights on the 1st floor.

Is it possible to replace the fuse panel with a breaker panel without running a new feed from the basement and without replacing the K+T throughout the second floor?

I recognize most will say the right way to do it is to gut the entire house (walls, ceilings) and rewire - but I see that as being prohibitively expensive and a monumental undertaking. Is it best to leave it as is - or would it be improved (from a safety perspective) if a breaker panel could be retrofit?

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  • Is that incoming feeder 120V or 240V?
    – ThreePhaseEel
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 0:51
  • Hmm…. Honestly I don’t know. I assume 120v…
    – OldHomeonLongIsland
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 1:27
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    If you replace it, you should be able to get some money at the antique shop for that, if you don't destroy it when removing it. IIRC it would be on the second floor as the old power usually came in that way and was almost all lighting at first (so serving the ceilings to replace gas lighting, rather than the more general purpose things we've come to expect electricity to do.)
    – Ecnerwal
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 1:31
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    It certainly could be replaced. The two questions are: 1) would there be an electrical code problem if you did this, and 2) can you pull off the swap without having the wires disintegrate on you?
    – Hot Licks
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 2:03
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    @kreemoweet Incorrect in cases where neutral is fused such as OP, or where certain 120/240V loads are involved. In those cases, Code requires all phases (and neutral if fused) to trip together, or it creates significant hazard (i.e. if one phase blows and not the other, or if neutral blows and not hot). Also, I have yet to see an AFCI or GFCI fuse, and OP could certainly benefit from AFCI protection.
    – Harper - Reinstate Monica
    Commented Mar 21, 2023 at 0:19

3 Answers 3

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You would probably have to open the wall around it, and there are the issues of working with old, delicate wiring insulation, but it should be possible to move the K&T interface out into a gutter or series of junction boxes around a new breaker panel connected to the K&T by modern wiring. Also, you could get improved safety by choosing AFCI breakers (or GFCI/AFCI breakers) to replace your fuses in that new breaker box.

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    I’m not opposed to taking down a good part of the wall around the panel. I just went through and counted 16 separate fixtures between the 3 floors and 2 stairwells. There are wall sconces in the stairwells, on an “exterior” stucco wall now enclosed as a sunroom, over the front stoop which has a giant copper covering and a cement-stucco underside…. I’d really like to replace ALL of the old wiring, but I view it as nearly impossible without completely gutting much of the 5500+ sq ft. Good to know the fuse panel can be replaced - now to find a qualified electrician who can do the work.
    – OldHomeonLongIsland
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 2:08
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    Seek out an old geezer or semi-to-mostly-retired guy, not a whippersnapper. Probably...
    – Ecnerwal
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 2:13
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    Note that the wires are all cut off short, so there's no way to simply drop in a plug-n-play panel. It's complicated enough that you need to hire a professional to do the job. But yes, it's definitely worth doing, even if only to ensure that the correct value breakers are installed (who knows how many times someone has replaced a fuse with a larger one because the old one kept burning out).
    – Ray Butterworth
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 2:28
  • Probably the best approach to "correct value breakers" is all 10A, and if any circuit uses more than 10A, change the loads around to stop doing that. Unfortunately I don't think there are 10A AFCIs ... so ... I wonder if the entire new panel could be fed by a 20A two-pole AFCI upstream?
    – jay613
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 16:32
  • @Ray why not? Just get the original wire into the panel and extend with wire nuts. Even Canada allows that.
    – Harper - Reinstate Monica
    Commented Mar 21, 2023 at 0:20
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I'm thinking about how to do this with minimal disturbance of the K&T. In some ways a response to @Ecnerwal's answer, but won't fit in a comment.

If you cut back the wall hoping to install junction boxes and then extend the cables back to a panel in the existing location, the problem you'll face is this: The way K&T is usually routed each one goes off by itself through a nearby tube with no slack. You cannot bunch/group/reroute the K&T wires the way you might do with NM or BX. So you'll have to put in a junction box for each one of the 16 branch circuits. But those boxes have to be accessible after you're done. You could end up turning the entire wall into an array of junction boxes. You won't know how easy or hard or ridiculous this will be until you open up at least about 20 sq ft of wall.

I'm trying to imagine a slightly different approach but a bit stuck on details. Build a junction box in this location without disturbing any of the branch wires. Remove the feed wires and the fuse blocks. Somehow line the existing box around the existing entry tubes, without disturbing them or their wires. The thing I can't see is how to do that in a code-compliant way. You can't build your own junction boxes. But it seems like the only practical way. In this box you'd splice everything, carefully to new cables that go to a new subpanel nearby with its own new feed.

I think you could probably (hopefully) feed that whole subpanel with a two-pole 20A AFCI breaker and then use 10A breakers for all these circuits. If any of these circuits needs more than 10A you should adjust your loads to stop doing that. Don't stress your old wiring.

And a final thought: If the house will be sold in the next several years, I think it should be part of the buyer's budget and plan to do a once-per-century rewiring. In that case I don't see the point of hacking this.

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  • if the house will be sold, the buyer should plan to take the cost of rewiring off the sale price... plus some for the inconvenience...
    – Stack Exchange Supports Israel
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 20:36
  • Comments and suggestions greatly appreciated. A few comments… this is definitely job for a professional. Re several comments on “not stressing the old wiring” - the fuse panel orig had 20amp fuses for all circuits. I replaced them all with 15amp fuses for safety. With that said - the fuses support 1 bathroom (daughter uses her blow dryer) and I’ve used portable a/c units on some of the bedrooms. The comments above have me concerned. What can I do to ensure we don’t burn the house down?
    – OldHomeonLongIsland
    Commented Mar 21, 2023 at 20:39
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I'm sure you have moved forward. If your doing the upgrades,and have significant exp, you should upgrade to modern wiring. If your paying an electrician, get their estimates to upgrade,but most important, get their input on how the grounding system works. Those old systems are very unsafe regarding grounding . If you can't afford it, leave it until you can . The branch circuits are more important than the box if your upgrading.

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