English subtitles for clip: File:ICANN History Project - Interview with Marilyn Cade, CEO at ICT Strategies, mCADE LLC (208E).webm
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1 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,000 Marilyn Cade, a longtime member of the ICANN community. 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,900 Marilyn, thank you for taking the time to talk to us. How did 3 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:18,800 you first become involved with the organization? 4 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:24,200 I answered my phone. My phone rang. I was on my way to 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:30,200 the US Congress to a hearing, and I received a call from an 6 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,200 AT&T executive who asked me what I knew about the new 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:38,700 generic top level domain memorandum understanding, and 8 00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:44,100 why an organization that AT&T funded was behind moving 9 00:00:44,100 --> 00:00:47,600 the A root server to the United Nations International 10 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:52,100 Telecommunications Union, Geneva, Switzerland. I too 11 00:00:52,100 --> 00:00:55,600 was amazed, but fortunately I knew who to call. So, I called 12 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:00,400 ISOC and I learned that seven people had been meeting 13 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:05,700 behind closed doors with I’m going to call it a scheme to 14 00:01:05,700 --> 00:01:09,700 privatize the functions that were being performed and 15 00:01:09,700 --> 00:01:16,700 coordinating the CCTLDs and the IANA function. I said, 16 00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:20,200 “Gee, this is kind of a surprise. No one knows anything 17 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:23,400 about this.” “Well, we had this small working group and 18 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:26,000 we handpicked and we’ve been meeting, and we’re going 19 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:30,000 to put the ITU on the board and the World Intellectual 20 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,400 Property Organization on the board and the European 21 00:01:33,400 --> 00:01:35,700 Commission on the board, and then four private sector 22 00:01:35,700 --> 00:01:38,600 people.” I’m like, “Uh, not so much.” This is not going 23 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,900 to be – nobody from business is going to be happy. 24 00:01:40,900 --> 00:01:42,500 And Marilyn, this was 1998? 25 00:01:42,500 --> 00:01:46,800 This was 1997, late 1997. So, at the time, I worked 26 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,000 for AT&T and I was from the computer industry side 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,600 and the ISP side. And AT&T was on the board of several 28 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,300 of the major high-tech associations. So, I convened 29 00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:02,400 an industry-wide meeting, including the Center for 30 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,100 Democracy and Technology, to listen to this 31 00:02:05,100 --> 00:02:07,900 proposal. This group of seven people came in to 32 00:02:07,900 --> 00:02:11,400 town, to Washington, D.C., packed room. Only 33 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:15,300 seated 65, standing room only, about 90 people, and 34 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:18,300 they presented this idea that they were going to 35 00:02:18,300 --> 00:02:22,300 privatize the functions. They had a transparency. Now, 36 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:25,100 these are the old days, right? Before PowerPoint. They 37 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:28,800 had a transparency with an image of the International 38 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:31,300 Telecommunications Union tower building, which is 39 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:36,800 15 towers, 15 floors high, with a red arrow at the top, 40 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:42,800 “Future Home of the A Root Server.” And at the bottom, 41 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:47,100 the words “United Nations ITU, Geneva, Switzerland.” 42 00:02:47,100 --> 00:02:51,700 And the room went bizarre over this idea. Where did 43 00:02:51,700 --> 00:02:55,200 this come from? We don’t like the ITU. Who told you 44 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,400 you could do this? And there were two Hill staff, 45 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,800 congressional staff, in the room. And they made a 46 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:06,300 phone call and invited the six men and one woman to 47 00:03:06,300 --> 00:03:09,200 a Hill hearing. So in two weeks, they came back for 48 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,500 the hearing and they took their transparency. 49 00:03:11,500 --> 00:03:15,600 Chip Pickering was in the chair, and at the end of the 50 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,200 hearing, it was kind of like, “So, you’re planning on 51 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:21,900 moving the A root server, paid for by US money, 52 00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:27,100 citizen’s money, DARPA, NSF, to Geneva, Switzerland, 53 00:03:27,100 --> 00:03:30,500 to the ITU, a UN agency? Don’t think so.” 54 00:03:30,500 --> 00:03:32,000 Not a popular move? 55 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,600 Not a popular move. And that was what led to my 56 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:39,100 reaching out to, along with others from business. 57 00:03:39,100 --> 00:03:42,100 The business community was very, very concerned. 58 00:03:42,100 --> 00:03:47,100 And we reached out to the White House and to 59 00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:51,500 Mack McLarty, who was Chief of Staff to President Clinton, 60 00:03:51,500 --> 00:03:56,500 because the Hill hearing was so aggressively controversial. 61 00:03:56,500 --> 00:03:59,200 It was not going to be good for the internet. Remember 62 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:02,600 that the internet was a baby then. Ira Magaziner 63 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:07,200 was tasked – he was writing the ecommerce agenda 64 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,200 for President Clinton, and he was tasked to kind of 65 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,400 oversee looking into this, figuring it out. He reached 66 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,400 out to Dr. Becky Burr, in the Department of Commerce. 67 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,700 The Department of Commerce issued the green paper. 68 00:04:18,700 --> 00:04:22,800 There were over 500 comments. Most of the industry 69 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:27,000 associations filed comments. I began coordinating 70 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,700 a coalition of the high-tech sector, the business 71 00:04:30,700 --> 00:04:33,300 sector, including the US Chamber of Commerce, 72 00:04:33,300 --> 00:04:37,200 Oracle, all of the associations, CDT, the 73 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,000 Center for Democracy and Technology, many of 74 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,600 the law firms, to try to develop a business perspective 75 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:47,200 and bring people up to speed. It was very complicated 76 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:50,100 to explain the internet in the days when there were – 77 00:04:50,100 --> 00:04:55,400 when you realized that, in 1998, in September of 1998, 78 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:58,900 when we actually launched ICANN, there were 147 million 79 00:04:58,900 --> 00:05:02,800 users worldwide. So we were dealing with something 80 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,200 that was yet to be understood. 81 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,900 Did people see, at that point, that very early stage – did 82 00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:14,100 they see, “Hey, in the future, this could be an economic bonanza?” 83 00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:16,400 The internet or the domain name system? 84 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,300 The Internet. 85 00:05:18,300 --> 00:05:22,000 So email was very young, right? And I think companies 86 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,200 were beginning to think, “Okay, there could be something 87 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,600 to this.” AOL had three million subscribers. AT&T 88 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:32,700 WorldNet had 1.3 million subscribers, home users. 89 00:05:32,700 --> 00:05:36,200 Businesses were beginning to say, “Wow, we could 90 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:41,000 communicate more effectively, not send faxes, 91 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,700 not make so many phone calls. We could begin to 92 00:05:43,700 --> 00:05:46,500 communicate more effectively with our widely 93 00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:50,800 distributed co-managers, salesforces, et cetera.” I think 94 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,400 they were beginning to get the promise of it. 95 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,700 So with that, Marilyn, did the business community 96 00:05:56,700 --> 00:06:00,200 see, as an extension of that, the importance of the DNS, 97 00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:02,400 or was that too in the weeds for them? 98 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:05,400 Much too much in the weeds. Much too much in the weeds. 99 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,900 You know, businesspeople didn’t know name Jon Postel. 100 00:06:09,900 --> 00:06:12,200 I knew the name Jon Postel, but it was because of my 101 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:15,100 technical background. I knew the name Jon Postel, 102 00:06:15,100 --> 00:06:18,900 but the second phone call that I received – once again, 103 00:06:18,900 --> 00:06:21,800 I was headed to the congress for a hearing. It seemed 104 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:24,300 to be where I spent my life at, right? And my phone 105 00:06:24,300 --> 00:06:29,500 rang, and it was Jon Postel. After this episode, 106 00:06:29,500 --> 00:06:33,600 where Jon had been supporting the idea of the 107 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,700 GTLD MOU, or so it was alleged, there was a lot 108 00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:42,000 of controversy about this. My phone rang, and 109 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:47,500 Jon had already retained Joe Simms as the outside 110 00:06:47,500 --> 00:06:51,400 legal adviser due to the lawsuit that arose when he 111 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,500 rerouted the internet traffic. So, the phone rang, 112 00:06:54,500 --> 00:06:58,700 Jon Postel, “Like, I’ve got a computer scientist 113 00:06:58,700 --> 00:07:03,100 on my phone? Okay.” And Jon said, “Marilyn, 114 00:07:03,100 --> 00:07:06,400 this is Jon Postel. Mike Roberts and Joe Simms 115 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,500 told me to call you.” And I sat down and talked to him 116 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:13,400 for more than an hour. He’s not someone, Brad, 117 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:17,000 that I would have – I was really annoyed at the 118 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,300 GTLD MOU approach, this route-around, trying to 119 00:07:20,300 --> 00:07:23,400 put intergovernmental organizations on the board. 120 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:27,600 But Jon and I talked through what his motivations 121 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,300 were, and I agreed to help him. But I also told him, 122 00:07:30,300 --> 00:07:34,200 “It’s going to be done a different way. We cannot 123 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,400 leave aside the business community or other governments 124 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,500 or other users.” Remember, I worked for a global 125 00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:45,900 company, and it really mattered to the company I worked for. 126 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:49,700 When you laid that out to him, you said – what 127 00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:51,400 came back at you from him? 128 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,400 He said he didn’t understand Washington, he didn’t 129 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:56,800 understand the politics. When he rerouted the 130 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:01,200 traffic as a test, he did it on a weekend so it wouldn’t 131 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,800 disrupt anything. But researchers work on weekends. 132 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:08,100 So all the AT&T lab’s researchers were working all 133 00:08:08,100 --> 00:08:11,300 weekend, trying to fix what they thought was an error. 134 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:15,500 So, this was an incredibly well-intentioned scientist 135 00:08:15,500 --> 00:08:21,300 who really believed that he was doing – and he did, 136 00:08:21,300 --> 00:08:26,100 by the way – so much good for the internet and for 137 00:08:26,100 --> 00:08:30,400 the world in the role he played. He didn’t get the 138 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:34,900 hard edges of how the rest of the people in the world 139 00:08:34,900 --> 00:08:39,100 would view this transition or the fact that a small 140 00:08:39,100 --> 00:08:41,900 group of people were making a decision. 141 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:43,600 Well, he’s a computer scientist, an engineer. 142 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,500 But the good news is he was getting really great 143 00:08:46,500 --> 00:08:49,400 advice from Joe, but better than that, he was getting 144 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,300 very good advice from Mike Roberts, who you know 145 00:08:52,300 --> 00:08:55,400 then became the first CEO and president, and from 146 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,900 Larry Landweber. One of the things to understand 147 00:08:58,900 --> 00:09:04,800 is we should envision this period almost like a 148 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:09,500 kaleidoscope. So, different people participated in 149 00:09:09,500 --> 00:09:12,000 different aspects, and as you know, when you turn 150 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:14,900 the kaleidoscope, you get a different image. But you 151 00:09:14,900 --> 00:09:18,300 always get a colorful image, right? And over time, 152 00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:22,200 people became more interested. Hill hearings in 153 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,700 Washington, D.C., congressional hearings, always 154 00:09:24,700 --> 00:09:29,600 generate press articles, et cetera. So, the issue 155 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,000 began to get a lot of attention, and because the 156 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,700 US Chamber was following it, it was also getting 157 00:09:35,700 --> 00:09:39,000 a lot of attention with the CEOs of major corporations. 158 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:44,400 Was there a time when ICANN was magically 159 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,800 accepted and they were thinking, “Okay, ICANN, 160 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,600 we need this as regards to the DNS,” or is that 161 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,400 overly simplistic and it was just a gradual campaign 162 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,100 that eventually got traction? 163 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:58,000 There were three competing proposals that were 164 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,100 submitted in response to the white paper. Maybe 165 00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:03,200 I should talk about the international forum on the 166 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,700 white paper for a bit as well. 167 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:08,100 That was the one in Reston, correct? 168 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:10,600 That was one – well, there were five. The 169 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,500 international forum on the white paper actually 170 00:10:13,500 --> 00:10:18,700 held five meetings, and a voluntary group of people 171 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:24,700 came together and cooperated in planning this 172 00:10:24,700 --> 00:10:27,800 consultation on the white paper. The white paper 173 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,800 laid out certain ideas about what it would take to 174 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,600 create what we then called NewCo. So, ICANN was 175 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,200 called NewCo right up to the day of the first board 176 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:43,300 meeting, and there’s an organization called CIX, 177 00:10:43,300 --> 00:10:49,100 the Commercial Internet Exchange. My boss was on 178 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:53,100 the board of CIX. Because we couldn’t, as a company, 179 00:10:53,100 --> 00:10:56,400 spend the time doing the coordination with the 180 00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,800 other far-flung entities that were planning the 181 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,500 Asia Pacific version, the African version, the European 182 00:11:03,500 --> 00:11:07,400 version, the Latin American version, we and others 183 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:13,800 funded CIX to be the surrogate coordinator. So, the 184 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:18,700 Reston meeting – and I was helping to plan it, but 185 00:11:18,700 --> 00:11:22,300 more in a background way, helping to fund the work 186 00:11:22,300 --> 00:11:26,600 that was being done. Other people, like Kathy Kleinman, 187 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,100 was involved in this. There were many, many others 188 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:32,500 that were also contributing to this planning. When we 189 00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:38,800 held – the day of the meeting in Reston, at 2:00 am 190 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,000 in the morning, my phone rang. Is there a theme to 191 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,300 this, phone calls? And Barbara Duly’s husband – 192 00:11:46,300 --> 00:11:48,900 Barbara was the executive director of CIX – had fallen 193 00:11:48,900 --> 00:11:52,300 into a coma, and Barbara was going to be the MC 194 00:11:52,300 --> 00:11:57,200 for the Reston international forum on the white paper. 195 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,800 And so, the legal counsel, Plesser and I, put our clothes, 196 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,800 our business clothes, in our cars, drove out and stayed 197 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,600 with Barbara while her husband was air-vacced. And 198 00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:11,700 then, we went to the hotel and took over her function. 199 00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:14,100 So, we held this consultation which was really an 200 00:12:14,100 --> 00:12:16,600 interactive consultation. We took different segments 201 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:19,100 of the white paper, people broke into groups, 202 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:22,400 brainstormed, white boarded, came to agreement 203 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:25,700 or not agreement. And that consultation process 204 00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:29,100 began to winnow out where there was agreement 205 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:31,800 and where there was not agreement. After that, 206 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:36,100 the five meetings took place. The Department of 207 00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:40,000 Commerce received those inputs, and after that, they 208 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,300 made a call for proposals. The group I was working 209 00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:47,100 with, Larry and Mike and others, submitted a proposal. 210 00:12:47,100 --> 00:12:50,300 Two other groups submitted proposals. The Department 211 00:12:50,300 --> 00:12:54,100 of Commerce took aspects from each of the other two 212 00:12:54,100 --> 00:12:57,500 proposals and then announced that they were accepting 213 00:12:57,500 --> 00:13:03,300 the NewCo proposal from our group, with modifications. 214 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:08,200 So at that point was when we began to try to convince 215 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,400 congress, “We’re done here. We have a plan. We have 216 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,900 a strategy.” Ira began engaging – he had been already, 217 00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:21,900 but he began engaging actively with Binghamton staff 218 00:13:21,900 --> 00:13:24,700 and the European Commission, who also had an 219 00:13:24,700 --> 00:13:27,600 ecommerce agenda. He began traveling to Australia, 220 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,200 where he met with Paul Twomey, who was with the 221 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,700 Australian government in a related [INAUDIBLE], 222 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:37,200 to Japan and elsewhere, to try to build support. 223 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:41,400 How tough was it – not just Ira’s mission to try and 224 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,500 garner international support for the concept of ICANN. 225 00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:46,500 How tough was it on the Hill? 226 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:52,000 It was tough, but we had a different environment 227 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:59,500 then. We had a very seasoned group of senior Democratic 228 00:13:59,500 --> 00:14:06,000 senators and a very strong interest from the US Chamber 229 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,100 of Commerce, which is very heavily, of course, influential 230 00:14:10,100 --> 00:14:13,600 with the Republicans. President Clinton had endorsement 231 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:19,200 from over 500 CEOs of high tech companies, and so the 232 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:23,600 message on the Hill was basically the high-tech sector, 233 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,700 the business sector strongly supports this. 234 00:14:26,700 --> 00:14:31,700 How much were you met with this attitude of, “We 235 00:14:31,700 --> 00:14:34,100 invented it. Why give it away? We own it.” 236 00:14:34,100 --> 00:14:41,600 We got some of that. But remember, “we invented 237 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,100 it” was actually not quite right. 238 00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:47,300 But it was the lay perception. 239 00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:50,200 It was the lay perception, but the other issue 240 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:52,800 here is that people who were building it were the 241 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,300 companies who were coming in and telling their 242 00:14:56,300 --> 00:14:59,300 elected members of congress, “This is a good thing. 243 00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:01,600 This is going to be good for us.” It was a miracle. We 244 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:06,700 managed to get the privatization into President Clinton’s 245 00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:09,700 ecommerce strategy. Then we had Europe on board, 246 00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:13,100 because Binghamton was also interested in not being 247 00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:16,200 left behind. We had Australia, we had Japan, and 248 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,500 those were big trading partners for US business. 249 00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:23,400 So, there was a little bit of skepticism, but it was 250 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:25,400 more, “We’re going to watch,” and that’s why, 251 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,300 Brad, there were so many continued oversight hearings. 252 00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:30,600 Remember, we just have oversight hearing after 253 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:32,500 oversight. Every year, there were two or three – 254 00:15:32,500 --> 00:15:34,800 It was an annual event, almost. 255 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,100 Yeah, or semi-annual. 256 00:15:37,100 --> 00:15:39,900 Marilyn, was there a time when you thought this 257 00:15:39,900 --> 00:15:42,600 model’s in danger? Something had transpired, 258 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,200 whether it was a lack of money or whatever, where 259 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:48,000 you thought, “Wow, ICANN’s in trouble?” 260 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,900 Yeah, like the time that Ira called me and said, 261 00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:55,400 “We’re not launching on Monday, because we only 262 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,700 have three out of the five required competitive 263 00:15:57,700 --> 00:16:00,600 registrars.” Yeah, I thought we were in trouble then. 264 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:05,200 Gee, it’s noon on Friday. We’re launching on Monday. 265 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,100 So, I dug up two more competitive registrars. 266 00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:13,800 Any other times that worried you? 267 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:26,800 Yes. You know, there were a lot of people who felt 268 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,300 that there was a lot of money to be made, that they 269 00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:33,800 could become the next NSI, and that they could exploit 270 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:41,100 the domain name system, and that they could move 271 00:16:41,100 --> 00:16:45,200 themselves into positions of power. I will say that 272 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:50,100 NSI was not the easiest monopoly to deal with, and 273 00:16:50,100 --> 00:16:53,500 it took them a long time and two or three changes 274 00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:56,600 in leadership to begin to appreciate the fact that 275 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,800 a competitive environment was better for them as well. 276 00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:05,600 They also were extremely tough negotiators, and 277 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:10,600 remember, we opened ICANN’s doors with Mike Roberts, 278 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:16,800 four staff, his credit card, and a line of credit. So 279 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:22,700 without the pro bono legal advice of Joe Simms, 280 00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:28,000 and then without the pro bono offer of the general 281 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:34,200 counsel, we could never have made it, just never have made it. 282 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:37,600 The white paper didn’t lay out where the funding was. 283 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,600 That was kind of up to you guys. “Okay, we’ve got the 284 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,400 broad outline here, but you guys have to figure out 285 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:45,600 how to financially make this thing move.” What were 286 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:47,500 those discussions like? 287 00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:50,100 It’s interesting, isn’t it, that I could spend an incredible 288 00:17:50,100 --> 00:17:54,500 amount of my time coordinating the industry, et cetera. 289 00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:57,600 When it came to actually writing a check to fund ICANN, 290 00:17:57,600 --> 00:18:00,300 it was really, really hard for businesses to figure out 291 00:18:00,300 --> 00:18:02,800 how to do that. And we weren’t alone in that. It was 292 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:07,000 incredibly hard to figure out how to do that, and I think 293 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:09,600 you’ve interviewed Mike Roberts. So, can you imagine 294 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,100 how brave it was to open the doors, to convince staff 295 00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:16,600 to stay, and to say, “Somehow, we’re going to figure out 296 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,700 the funding?” There was another time when I thought 297 00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:26,300 we could fail, and we were in Ghana. The registries 298 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:29,400 and the registrars were delaying their payments of their 299 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:32,900 fees. They were paying eight cents a domain name, 300 00:18:32,900 --> 00:18:36,200 and they were withholding the payment, paying late, 301 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,200 refusing to pay. We were in real financial trouble, 302 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:46,500 and this really brand-new guy to ICANN, named Ron Andra, 303 00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:51,100 who was just getting involved, turned to me and said – 304 00:18:51,100 --> 00:18:53,700 because I was kind of acting like his spirit guide. He 305 00:18:53,700 --> 00:19:00,000 turned to me and said, “Eight cents? Eight cents a 306 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,300 domain name? That’s all they get?” And I said yes. 307 00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:04,800 He said, “Here,” and he sat down and wrote out a 308 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,700 speech, and he compared the fee to how much he 309 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:12,800 paid – and he called his wife and asked how much 310 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,000 the taxes were on his telephone bill that month. 311 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,800 He went to the microphone and said, “I propose that 312 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:23,000 the community tell the board to raise the fee to 313 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:27,400 25 cents a domain name.” Booing, booing, rounds 314 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,300 of applause, and by the end of the meeting, the 315 00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:33,000 community had called for raising the fee for a 316 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,500 domain name to 25 cents. So, we didn’t fix the funding 317 00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:42,700 problem, but we significantly softened it. And 318 00:19:42,700 --> 00:19:45,900 those were just individual acts of courage. There 319 00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:48,200 was no reason for Ron to do this. He was sitting 320 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,800 in the audience and he just thought how unfair it was. 321 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,900 What was your motivation at the time? I mean, 322 00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:56,800 tell me about the hard times. Obviously it sounds 323 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:59,400 like a great deal of work. It also sounds like a 324 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,800 little bit of fun. But what was the motivation? Was 325 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,800 there a perception, “Hey, we’re creating something 326 00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:11,000 here that will reshape the world,” or did no one 327 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,600 quite see it like that, and was it something else? 328 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:18,300 President Clinton used to say, “Always be sure 329 00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:21,400 you stumble in the right direction.” And I think 330 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:25,800 the community was kind of stumbling, whoever 331 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,600 the community was. We kind of thought, “This could 332 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:31,200 be good. It could be good for business, whatever it 333 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,700 is. It could grow, it could be good for individual users. 334 00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:38,400 There’s something there. Do we actually know where 335 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,800 it’s going to go? Do we really envision where the 336 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,900 internet is going, the role it’s going to play? Not really.” 337 00:20:44,900 --> 00:20:48,400 But we did know that point to point communication, 338 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,000 which is what we were dealing with then, high speed 339 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:55,200 point to point, T1s, T3s, extremely expensive – we knew 340 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,100 that could only work for the most advantaged corporations, 341 00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:05,300 huge. The single biggest item in most budgets of companies 342 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:08,800 and associations was the communications bill, more than 343 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,900 their data processing bills. Sometimes as much as their 344 00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:15,100 salaries. So we knew we had to break that, if we were 345 00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:18,300 ever really going to advance ecommerce, and ecommerce 346 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:20,900 was the buzzword. Hey, it was on my business card. I was 347 00:21:20,900 --> 00:21:22,200 the Vice President of Ecommerce. 348 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,800 So, people knew – they had a name for it before they 349 00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:27,200 could clearly define it, basically. 350 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,400 They had this idea of what we now think about as 351 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,600 real digitization. They had this like, “Ooh, we’re going 352 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,100 to do everything online.” It was very catchy, you know? 353 00:21:37,100 --> 00:21:40,700 You went to thinktank speeches and business projections 354 00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:45,100 and this company vying with that company, Oracle talking 355 00:21:45,100 --> 00:21:49,600 about their ecommerce platform and IBM, et cetera. It 356 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:53,900 was the business side of it was really motivated by where 357 00:21:53,900 --> 00:21:57,000 we could go with this and what we could build on top of it. 358 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:01,500 How did you accomplish this sort of marriage between 359 00:22:01,500 --> 00:22:08,100 business, between the techno geeks, the Postels who 360 00:22:08,100 --> 00:22:11,200 are computer scientists, and the government, which 361 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,500 wanted to protect its little thing here? How was there 362 00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:18,600 ever a meeting of the minds between those three entities? 363 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:22,900 So I cheated. I was a big D, and for the audience, what 364 00:22:22,900 --> 00:22:26,600 that means is I was very actively involved in the Democratic 365 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,900 party and had very strong personal Democratic ties. 366 00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:37,200 And the Democrats were in the house, the senate, and 367 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,200 the White House. President Clinton was considered 368 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,800 a very moderate Democrat, and of course had very 369 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,900 strong Republican CEO support as well, in his election. 370 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:49,900 And so, the marriage with government was not hard, 371 00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:53,000 really. There was Hill pressure, but we also had a very, 372 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:58,500 very friendly Department of Commerce and Office of the 373 00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:03,500 President. And on the technocrats, gee, that’s what 374 00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:06,600 people like Mike Roberts are for, somebody who’s deeply 375 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,400 from the technical community. Larry Landweber, people 376 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,400 who had huge, huge respect, the real techno, geeky types 377 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:19,200 out there. And you know, we didn’t actually have – 378 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,300 we had a lot of thinktanks involved, and we had the 379 00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:24,700 Center for Democracy and Technology. But we didn’t 380 00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:31,500 actually have the kind of civil society individuals. We 381 00:23:31,500 --> 00:23:34,400 had a few academics, some of whom might like to had a few academics, some of whom might like to 382 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,500 throw stones, just because that’s what they were 383 00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:41,000 doing when they were teaching. But it was a very much 384 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,600 smaller community, with only 147 million users on the 385 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,600 internet. It really was a much smaller community to try to convince. 386 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,800 When you see – I’m interviewing you now. We’re in 387 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:58,000 Johannesburg, so ICANN 59. When you see a meeting 388 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,200 of this size and you think back to those roots, what 389 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,000 goes through your head? 390 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,100 I didn’t go to Singapore, where the bylaws were delivered. 391 00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:11,800 I sent someone else. So my first meeting was Berlin. 392 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:16,100 And it was a real shock, because I went to the microphone 393 00:24:16,100 --> 00:24:21,100 to make a statement and there were two microphones. 394 00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:23,900 We could call it the good and the bad, or we could just 395 00:24:23,900 --> 00:24:29,200 call it the two different sides. And a certain party 396 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:34,300 was hiring third parties to come and be surrogates for them. 397 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:38,900 And so there, we were very – there was Steve Metalitz 398 00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:42,400 from the intellectual property side, and there was me 399 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,700 and there was Jerry Burman, from CDT. And I’m at the 400 00:24:45,700 --> 00:24:48,900 microphone, and everybody else, Brad, from the business 401 00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:52,200 side, the IPC side, the ISPs, they’re all sitting in the back 402 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,700 of the room. I go to the microphone and make a statement, 403 00:24:54,700 --> 00:24:57,900 and there’s 25 people at the other microphone. They 404 00:24:57,900 --> 00:25:05,200 start booing me, right? And I turned around and look at 405 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:05,700 the guys, so to speak, in the back of the room, and then 406 00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:10,300 I walk back there and I say, “Here’s the deal. When one 407 00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:14,000 of us makes a positive statement, we applaud, and when 408 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:15,700 they make a statement, we boo. We’re going to shut 409 00:25:15,700 --> 00:25:20,900 this down now.” So when I look at how civil we’ve become, 410 00:25:20,900 --> 00:25:24,700 it’s a miracle to me, right? We don’t boo each other anymore. 411 00:25:24,700 --> 00:25:27,100 We’re much more civil. There’s so many more of us, 412 00:25:27,100 --> 00:25:32,300 and the magic of this is how we have changed the face of 413 00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:36,600 the participants in ICANN, to be more reflective of the 414 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:41,000 3.7 billion users on the internet. We used to be so white, 415 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,300 whenever we came to a meeting. 416 00:25:43,300 --> 00:25:46,600 It was also male. What was it like to be a woman among 417 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,100 all these business leaders at that time, and particularly 418 00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:53,800 the technical world, the computer scientists? 419 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:57,600 First of all, I have a fairly strong technical background, 420 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:02,200 and I represented AT&T Labs, so I had a lot of coaching 421 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:04,100 behind me, right? 422 00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:05,900 Were you accepted? 423 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:10,200 I was more accepted than most of the other females, 424 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,100 I would say, because I did have a fairly strong technical 425 00:26:13,100 --> 00:26:19,900 background, and because I always do deep research. 426 00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:30,500 And I think also, I believe in effecting change. And I 427 00:26:30,500 --> 00:26:33,600 never felt non-accepted by the technical community, 428 00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,300 but I think a lot of it, Brad, was that I had a lot of 429 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:42,200 technical coaches. And I knew enough to keep them close. 430 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,900 Marilyn, you were involved in the earliest stages. 431 00:26:44,900 --> 00:26:49,200 When you look back at those early stages of ICANN 432 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:53,500 and you look ahead to the future, what concerns you 433 00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:57,000 when you’re looking through the lens of history? 434 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,500 What concerns you about the future of ICANN? 435 00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:05,400 So there’s an RFC called RFC 1591 that Jon Postel 436 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,800 wrote, and those are written and published by the 437 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:15,400 Internet Engineering Taskforce. And it says that 438 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:18,800 you do all that you do for the good of the global 439 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:23,400 internet. What concerns me is that we are a 440 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,300 quasi-standards development body and policy 441 00:27:27,300 --> 00:27:31,800 development body, and we need to help the 442 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,300 contracted parties understand that they can do 443 00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:39,500 well, but also do good, that the DNS is something 444 00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:44,200 like a spectrum. It can’t collide, and that they 445 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,600 are significantly advantaged by their relationship 446 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:54,000 with ICANN. ISPs and data center providers and others 447 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,500 have to get a license or an authorization, country 448 00:27:57,500 --> 00:28:01,400 by country, in order to do business. It’s very expensive. 449 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:04,900 Sometimes the delay is three months to two years, 450 00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:09,800 to get the license. They have to hire a local counsel, 451 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,900 in most cases, and if our registries and registrars 452 00:28:13,900 --> 00:28:16,400 had to do that on a country by country basis, we 453 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,600 would not have a global presence for the registries 454 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,100 and registrars. The thing that concerns me right 455 00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:27,600 now is that we have so many new contracted 456 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,000 parties who didn’t come up through the experience. 457 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,400 They kind of parachuted in. They thought this was 458 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,500 a great business opportunity, and they don’t 459 00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:40,900 understand the value equation of ICANN to them. 460 00:28:40,900 --> 00:28:43,800 The historical foundation would help them. 461 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,600 When we set ICANN up, we looked thoroughly 462 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,200 at the model to prevent anti-trust issues, to 463 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,700 protect the not for profit status of ICANN. When 464 00:28:53,700 --> 00:28:57,700 I say we, I mean the private sector attorneys, not 465 00:28:57,700 --> 00:28:59,500 just the government, but those of us who were 466 00:28:59,500 --> 00:29:02,900 engaged, we asked our inside counsel and our 467 00:29:02,900 --> 00:29:07,400 outside counsel. We decided to base ICANN, Inc. 468 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:10,000 in California instead of Delaware. I mean, these 469 00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,400 were thoughtful decisions, and remember, there 470 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,500 was only one registry at the time, and only five competitive 471 00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:21,100 registrars. So, understanding this protective role that ICANN 472 00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:28,300 provides, the legacy GTLDs, I believe, understand it. But 473 00:29:28,300 --> 00:29:30,900 many of the new registries don’t. They don’t, and they 474 00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:35,600 don’t understand that if ICANN loses its not for profit 475 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,400 status, or if there are anti-trust implications, if we lose 476 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:45,500 the balance with being an open, transparent standards 477 00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:49,500 coordination with the contracted parties, there could be 478 00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:53,500 significant financial risk, or even they could find themselves 479 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:57,800 being investigated perhaps by competition authorities. 480 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,500 And that not understanding that risk, that’s what scares me. 481 00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:05,600 Talk to me about the human interaction. Have you made 482 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,200 friends at ICANN over the years? 483 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:17,900 If we would take a popularity vote, I think I’d win. I think 484 00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:21,400 it is important for all of us to make a contribution, and 485 00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:24,600 sometimes that means delivering a tough message. But 486 00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:27,500 I hope it always means delivering the tough message with 487 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:32,500 care, with professionalism, and being – you can disagree 488 00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:34,400 without being disagreeable. 489 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:35,900 Respectful. 490 00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:39,900 And I think that, in particular, one thing that really 491 00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:46,100 excites me, Brad, is the new energy, the enthusiasm coming 492 00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:51,700 to us from the developing countries, the interest in being 493 00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:58,300 engaged, the willingness to devote the time that a next 494 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:03,000 gen or a fellow spends in trying to learn about ICANN. 495 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:09,900 I’m very excited about new participants in not just the 496 00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:14,400 GNSO, but in the CCNSO, in the GAC. The GAC has 497 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:19,600 grown and is maturing, and it’s just wow. We have 498 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:24,600 created an international organization in less than 20 years, 499 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:32,700 almost 20 years, that is stable, respected, reliable, and trusted. 500 00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:35,500 That’s a great point to end on. Marilyn Cade, longtime 501 00:31:35,500 --> 00:31:37,500 member of the ICANN community. Thank you so much. 502 00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:39,000 My pleasure.