English subtitles for clip: File:ICANN History Project - Interview with Chris Disspain, ICANN Vice Chair, 2017-2019 (308E).webm

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Chris Disspain, an ICANN Board
member and a long time figure

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in the country code
top level domain sphere.

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Chris, in the early days,

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Jon Postel handled most
ccTLD delegations directly.

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When ICANN was formed,

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the CC Registers
disputed a lot of the ICAAN fees.

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There was a lot of contention.
Tell us about that period.

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It was wider than the fees, Brad.
It was the whole ICANN concept.

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ccTLD was a sovereign,
and still are.

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And when I first came along
to ICANN in November 2000,

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a lot of ccTLDs
turned up to ICANN meetings

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to make sure
nothing happened.

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There was an argument
going on about

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the legitimacy of ICANN.

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And more importantly,
even if ICANN was legitimate,

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whether the ccTLD world
should bother to be involved,

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and should they pay
them any money,

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was of course,
a major part of that question.

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As well as should
there be contracts

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between ICANN and
the ccTLD Manager.

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So for the first few years
from, say 2000,

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the CC's would
meet to talk about that.

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And eventually,
in about 2002,

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enough people
in the ccTLD world

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felt it was worth exploring
having a proper interface,

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a separate ccTLD
interface with ICANN.

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Originally the DNSO, the Domain
Name Supporting Organization,

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included CCs,
but they left,

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and so the question was should
we have our own organization?

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And as part of a
look at ICANN's structure,

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a review of ICANN's structure,
when we moved to

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what we have now, the
Supporting Organization model,

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there was a call
for there to be a ccNSO.

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And than then took
quite some considerable time

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to chorale enough
ccTLDs together

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to give it critical mass so
that it was possible to negotiate

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the formation
of the ccNSO.

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In those early days, is it an
over simplification to say that

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the CCs didn't automatically
assume ICANN authority.

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Well, they still don't.

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I mean they accept
that ICANN  has its role.

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And that they
have their role.

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And CCs can choose,

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because there's
no contractual relationship,

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unlike in the gTLD world,

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where every gTLD is
in a relationship with ICANN.

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In the CC world,
with a few small exceptions,

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there is no
contractual relationship.

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So that that means is the
CC's come voluntarily to ICANN.

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At its absolute baseline,

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all a ccTLD Manager really
cares about, is the IANA function.

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And as long as the IANA function
works so the ccTLD Manager

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can update a phone number in
the database or change an address.

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As long as that works,
and as long as it's stable,

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ccTLD Managers
at the base are happy.

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There's very little
policy at a global level

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that has any
affect on ccTLDs.

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One example is the
interpretation of  RFC 1591,

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which is the RFC
that Jon Postel wrote

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to govern the way
that a ccTLD management

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could be transferred
from one body to another.

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CC's have completed now
a policy development

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on how that
should be interpreted.

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Now, the interesting thing
to remember about that is

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that is a global policy
that tells ICANN what to do.

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Not a global policy that
tells the ccTLDs what to do.

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And so this independence,

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each one being sovereign,
and coming voluntarily,

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in my view,
actually significantly contributes

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to the legitimacy of ICANN.

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Because you've got
non-contracted people

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who run their own TLD

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turning up and involving
themselves in the ICANN model.

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Not because they have to.

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Not because they have to,
but because they choose to, so.

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Was there an assumption on
the ICANN side of that equation

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in those very early days that
the CC's would fall into line, or...

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Yes, absolutely.
At that time,

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ICANN was a
small number of people,

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so individual's views
held sway.

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And for quite some time,

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there was a view that
ccTLDs would sign contracts,

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that would happen.

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And ccTLDs would be obliged
to make financial contributions.

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It just didn't happen because
it was never going to happen.

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I mean getting the
ccNSO formed in itself,

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we really got it across the line
in Montreal in 2003.

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Not because we had a lot of
ccTLD Managers willing to be in it.

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But more because
the vocal causes against it

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just accepted that
they wouldn't join,

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but they wouldn't block it.

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So in other words, there was
no active blocking by any CC?

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There was a little bit of active
blocking but not enough to...

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A small number?

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Yes, a very small number and
not enough to make it an issue.

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So, when we set it up
the by-law said

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it doesn't officially
become the ccNSO

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until you have four members
in each of the regions.

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So you've got
Europe, Asia-Pacific,

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Latin America and the Caribbean,
and Africa.

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And you think
about that for a second,

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you've got to get four members
in each of those regions.

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Now, the North America region
is already a challenge because

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there aren't actually that many
North American region members.

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And, in fact,
we're in Puerto Rico right now,

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and Puerto Rico .pr was
a founding member of the ccNSO.

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In Africa,
we didn't have an issue,

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we got four members there.

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Asia-Pacific was okay because
we had Australia, New Zealand,

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Taiwan, and one other,
which I can't remember.

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- But Europe was a real challenge.
- Why?

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Because, the seat of the
antipathy towards ICANN

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was based in Europe.

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And so you had large ccTLDs
who simply wouldn't join.

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So the Netherlands —
.nl was a founding member.

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And in the end,
we had to get —

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Gibraltar became a member,

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and we couldn't find
a fourth member.

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But because of the quirk
of the ICANN regional setup

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that says if you are a protectorate
you are part of that region.

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So the French Polynesian Islands
are actually part of Europe.

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We managed to persuade
the Cayman Islands

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to join as a European
member of the ccNSO.

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Was it naïve in the early days
on the part of ICANN

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to assume that the CC's
would just fall in line?

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I'm not sure that it was an
assumption that they'd do that.

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And I don't think
anyone was naïve.

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But I do think
that there was a real need

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from the point of view
of legitimacy

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of making ICANN
legitimate in this area

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to be able to show that you've
brought the ccTLDs along.

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It's the same thing
with in respect to governments.

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If you haven't
got the governments in,

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then how can you say that you
have a multi-stakeholder model?

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You just can't.

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What you've got is a
trade organization for gTLDs.

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So it was really just
like we have to have this,

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and this is how
we're going to get it.

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And over time,
we kind of wore it down

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to a point where people
were okay, we'll accept this.

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And I think that's
worked pretty well, really.

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You wore it down, how?

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Oh, well in various
different ways by those of us

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who were sort of committed
to the multi-stakeholder model

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and wanted this to work
by tempering the agitation

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from the ones on the
other end of the pole

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who just said not interested,
we'll never do it.

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We kind of brought
the parties together.

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I mean in Montreal,
there was

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Bart Boswinkel from .nl,
Bernie Turcutte from .ca, and me,

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Alejandro Pisanty, and
Hans from the Netherlands

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on the Board.
We spent five days

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in a basement of the
Sheraton Hotel in Montreal,

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nutting out the
final bits of the ccNSO.

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Interesting. This was
what time frame again?

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It was 2003,
in Montreal.

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And then what happened
was that the deal

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had to go to the GAC, to the
Governmental Advisory Committee,

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to be ticked yes,
and endorsed.

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And it had to go
to the ccTLD room,

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and have enough buy-in from
the ccTLD managers in that room

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for us to be able to say we
are now going to push the button

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and see if we can find the
four members from each region.

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During that time, that afternoon,
there were three or four hours,

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The GAC Chair
was Sharil Tarmizi.

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He was, obviously,
chairing the GAC.

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I was sort of the
nominated negotiator,

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if you like,
in the ccTLD room.

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Sharil was explaining to the GAC
how this was all going to work,

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and they
should endorse it.

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And I was explaining to the
ccTLDs how it was going to work.

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A number of ccTLD managers,
even at that late stage,

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were running
between the two rooms

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telling the GAC that it wasn't
going well in the ccTLD room,

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and telling the ccTLD room
it wasn't going well in the GAC.

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Fortunately, Sharil and I were
on Messenger with each other.

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Messenger, remember that?

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It shows you
how long ago it was, right?

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So we were able to make sure
that nothing went wrong.

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But it was
touch and go.

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- Obviously, a critical moment.
- Oh yes.

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What were
some of the others?

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Oh, IDNs.

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IDNs is the thing that I am
probably the proudest of,

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that the CC's did,
with the IDN Fast Track.

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Because of the expansion
and the inclusivity?

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Yes. I mean what happened
was we are at an APTLD,

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an Asia-Pacific TLD meeting
in Dubai in 2007, I think.

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And Theresa Swinehart
from ICANN,

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Janis Karklins, who was
then the Chair of the GAC,

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and I, were at this meeting
and we were in a session.

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The wave of passion
that came out of that room —

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it was the first time
we'd had a meeting

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in the Arab region
in the Asia-Pacific thing.

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The wave of passion
that came out of that room,

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to say this is ridiculous, we
cannot use the internet properly

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because we cannot
type in our script.

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It was so amazing,
that at the coffee break,

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Janis, Theresa, and I went and
stood at a table in the hallway,

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with literally an
envelope and a pen,

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and wrote down how
could we make this work

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so that it
happened quickly.

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Knowing that a full-blown
policy development process

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would take a considerable
amount of time.

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And from there, we developed the
concept of having the Fast Track.

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The Fast Track was
the first time in ICANN

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where the GAC had been prepared
to actually nominate people

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from the GAC to actually
be on a working group.

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The GAC's way of working
previously had been

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we don't do that,
we're all in it together,

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and you just tell us
what you're doing,

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and then we'll
sort it out later.

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But they actually
agreed to put

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individual people on the
working group we had at large.

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So it was actually the first cross-
community working group in ICANN.

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Although, we didn't
call it that, then.

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And that worked to build the
Fast Track and to make that work

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so that IDNs were
able to be launched.

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Now, I have a terrible memory
for dates and times,

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and I cannot
remember the date.

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But I do remember
it was in Seoul,

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and I was
Chairing the ccNSO.

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Peter Dengate Thrush
was the Chair of the Board.

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I don't remember but
I think Avri was gNSO Chair.

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The Board
passed the resolution

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to launch
the IDN Fast Track,

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and everyone in
that room was in tears,

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because it
meant so much.

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It was an
extraordinary moment.

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To the layperson to the
ICANN world there is, I think,

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not clarity in terms
of the relationship

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between CCs and
their respective governments.

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Yes, well that varies
from CC to CC, right.

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So you have some CCs
who are government.

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00:12:50,865 --> 00:12:53,247
They are people nominated
by their government.

236
00:12:53,247 --> 00:12:55,721
And, you know, China
is an obvious example of that.

237
00:12:56,542 --> 00:13:02,285
There are some CCs that are
entirely independent of government.

238
00:13:02,285 --> 00:13:05,825
Now, most
of those are

239
00:13:05,825 --> 00:13:10,700
legacy ones
where you've still got

240
00:13:10,700 --> 00:13:12,528
an individual who is
running that ccTLD

241
00:13:12,528 --> 00:13:15,753
who Jon Postel nominated.
Not all, but most.

242
00:13:15,753 --> 00:13:18,541
And they might
talk to their government,

243
00:13:18,541 --> 00:13:20,447
but they're entirely
independent of them.

244
00:13:20,447 --> 00:13:23,314
Some are academia and
universities running them,

245
00:13:23,314 --> 00:13:25,925
because a lot of
Jon's nominations

246
00:13:25,925 --> 00:13:28,002
were obviously
in the universities.

247
00:13:28,002 --> 00:13:32,532
Then you have the ones that have
the sort of middle-ground model,

248
00:13:32,532 --> 00:13:37,130
which is usually a
sort of membership-based

249
00:13:37,130 --> 00:13:42,285
independent organization
that has a good liaison role.

250
00:13:42,285 --> 00:13:43,829
The government
either has a liaison role

251
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:47,266
or in some cases, an oversight role
in respect to that organization.

252
00:13:47,266 --> 00:13:49,266
So the
relationship varies,

253
00:13:49,266 --> 00:13:51,974
but if you want to
run a successful ccTLD

254
00:13:51,974 --> 00:13:53,272
you pretty much need

255
00:13:53,272 --> 00:13:55,186
to have a good relationship
with your government.

256
00:13:55,186 --> 00:13:58,207
So in that context, Chris,
was there concern

257
00:13:58,207 --> 00:14:00,017
on the part
of many governments

258
00:14:00,017 --> 00:14:04,509
about this involvement in
ICANN in those early days?

259
00:14:04,509 --> 00:14:07,689
Well again, I think it varies
from government to government.

260
00:14:10,689 --> 00:14:12,450
In those days,
there were some ccTLDs

261
00:14:12,450 --> 00:14:17,600
who didn't
want there to be

262
00:14:17,600 --> 00:14:22,621
anything too loud or
too far above the parapet,

263
00:14:22,621 --> 00:14:23,882
because their
concern was

264
00:14:23,882 --> 00:14:25,698
if government actually
wakes up to us

265
00:14:25,698 --> 00:14:28,009
then we're going
to have a problem.

266
00:14:28,009 --> 00:14:31,316
Then there were some who
were government and so on.

267
00:14:31,316 --> 00:14:32,625
I think it was
a mixed bag.

268
00:14:32,625 --> 00:14:35,096
I think in the same way
that the ccTLD Managers,

269
00:14:35,096 --> 00:14:38,400
some were for ICANN, some
didn't care, some were against.

270
00:14:38,490 --> 00:14:40,157
The same thing applies to
governments and it still does.

271
00:14:40,157 --> 00:14:42,862
I mean there are
governments today

272
00:14:42,862 --> 00:14:45,405
that don't feel comfortable
with the ICANN model

273
00:14:45,405 --> 00:14:47,032
and there are
governments that do.

274
00:14:47,032 --> 00:14:49,826
In this project, we're
obviously looking  back in time.

275
00:14:49,826 --> 00:14:51,533
But looking
ahead for a moment,

276
00:14:51,533 --> 00:14:53,533
is it now just
an automatic given

277
00:14:53,533 --> 00:14:56,568
that CCs are within
the ICANN sphere,

278
00:14:56,568 --> 00:14:59,950
a part of the
ICANN process,

279
00:14:59,950 --> 00:15:01,900
a part of the
ICANN community?

280
00:15:01,900 --> 00:15:04,421
Well again, I suppose it
depends on what you mean.

281
00:15:04,421 --> 00:15:07,510
If you mean is it given,
that they will be involved.

282
00:15:07,510 --> 00:15:09,150
Speak in terms
of involvement.

283
00:15:09,150 --> 00:15:10,804
In terms of involvement,
no, it's not a given.

284
00:15:10,804 --> 00:15:12,873
I mean a lot of
ccTLDs do come,

285
00:15:12,873 --> 00:15:15,850
quite a significant
number do come.

286
00:15:15,850 --> 00:15:20,856
In respect of the ccNSO, we've
probably reached the 80/20 point.

287
00:15:20,856 --> 00:15:25,826
Getting the last bunch of
members is much harder than...

288
00:15:25,826 --> 00:15:27,469
- Sure.
- It's changing.

289
00:15:27,469 --> 00:15:32,620
Because of the break now of the
line between ccTLDs and gTLDs,

290
00:15:32,620 --> 00:15:36,536
because you've got ccTLD
Managers running gTLDs now,

291
00:15:36,536 --> 00:15:38,310
- because of the new gTLDs,
- Mhm.

292
00:15:38,310 --> 00:15:43,657
and you've got
geographic names

293
00:15:43,657 --> 00:15:45,620
appearing in
the gTLD world,

294
00:15:45,620 --> 00:15:47,668
I think that's making

295
00:15:47,668 --> 00:15:51,875
or bringing the two sides,
if I can use that word, together.

296
00:15:51,875 --> 00:15:55,647
Stress is what
holds buildings up.

297
00:15:55,647 --> 00:15:59,284
And the stress between
the gNSO and ccNSO

298
00:15:59,284 --> 00:16:03,101
is actually quite important
because it binds ICANN together.

299
00:16:03,101 --> 00:16:08,200
And the more the ccTLD
community needs to involve itself

300
00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:10,200
in what's going on
in the gNSO world,

301
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,325
whether it's from a
protectionist point of view,

302
00:16:12,325 --> 00:16:13,976
or from an I'm
involved point of view,

303
00:16:13,976 --> 00:16:16,529
the more we actually
come together as a community.

304
00:16:16,529 --> 00:16:18,892
Now, it doesn't mean we
necessarily agree with each other.

305
00:16:18,892 --> 00:16:23,142
But at least we're in the
same room discussing it.

306
00:16:23,142 --> 00:16:26,000
So in the future, I think —
right now, I think it changing.

307
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:28,340
There's much more cross-community
stuff than there used to be.

308
00:16:28,340 --> 00:16:30,258
The silos are
kind of breaking down.

309
00:16:30,258 --> 00:16:32,217
You've made a
point of mentioning,

310
00:16:32,217 --> 00:16:33,217
and I think it's
an interesting point,

311
00:16:33,217 --> 00:16:36,603
that cc involvement was a form of
validation of the ICANN model.

312
00:16:36,603 --> 00:16:39,057
It contributes to the legitimacy,
absolutely, yes.

313
00:16:39,057 --> 00:16:43,109
Did ICANN see it that way
in the early days?

314
00:16:43,109 --> 00:16:45,650
I think some
people certainly did.

315
00:16:45,650 --> 00:16:49,400
I think some people just felt that
they had to get the ccTLDs involved

316
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,415
because there were 246 of them
and they'd all pay money.

317
00:16:52,415 --> 00:16:54,305
- So that was good.
- Yes.

318
00:16:54,305 --> 00:16:56,170
Because there
wasn't a lot of money.

319
00:16:56,170 --> 00:17:01,041
But I think that
others clearly felt

320
00:17:01,041 --> 00:17:04,088
that the ccTLDs were critical,
from the point of view of

321
00:17:04,088 --> 00:17:07,971
building the base of
defensibility of the ICANN model.

322
00:17:07,971 --> 00:17:12,209
Otherwise, you can't really say
you're doing what you do

323
00:17:12,209 --> 00:17:14,882
because you haven't
got a significant portion

324
00:17:14,882 --> 00:17:19,974
of the DNS
on your side.

325
00:17:19,974 --> 00:17:22,654
Chris, was there ever a concern,

326
00:17:22,654 --> 00:17:24,654
either in the early days
or right up to present,

327
00:17:24,654 --> 00:17:28,225
that on the part of the
cc operators and the cc community,

328
00:17:28,225 --> 00:17:31,684
that they were
taking second seat

329
00:17:31,684 --> 00:17:35,128
to the generic,
the g community.

330
00:17:35,128 --> 00:17:37,691
No, they wanted to take second
seat because they didn't want

331
00:17:37,691 --> 00:17:43,572
ICANN to be
influential in the cc world.

332
00:17:43,572 --> 00:17:46,584
They wanted ICANN to
concentrate on the gTLD world.

333
00:17:46,584 --> 00:17:49,516
- So basically the cc…
- In the early days.

334
00:17:49,516 --> 00:17:52,745
Yes. The CC's were basically quite
happy to have their own room.

335
00:17:52,745 --> 00:17:54,850
I mean there was talk
at the time of we'll pay,

336
00:17:54,850 --> 00:17:57,873
we'll pay for our own room, we
shouldn't take money from ICANN.

337
00:17:57,873 --> 00:17:59,873
If you go back and
look at the by-laws,

338
00:17:59,873 --> 00:18:03,078
when we set up
the ccNSO it was critical.

339
00:18:03,078 --> 00:18:05,170
And this took a
long time to get agreed.

340
00:18:05,170 --> 00:18:08,455
It was critical that we —
the CC's actually have the right

341
00:18:08,455 --> 00:18:11,572
to decide who
their staff support is.

342
00:18:11,572 --> 00:18:14,182
And if the CC's are
not happy with that,

343
00:18:14,182 --> 00:18:16,735
they have the
right to say thanks,

344
00:18:16,735 --> 00:18:19,825
well create our own,
and we'll pay for it.

345
00:18:19,825 --> 00:18:21,990
And that was a really
important point because

346
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:24,102
people said well we can't...
if we're having to...

347
00:18:24,102 --> 00:18:26,755
if ICANN's staff are
going to be providing us

348
00:18:26,755 --> 00:18:29,585
with all of this stuff, then
clearly we'll get captured.

349
00:18:29,585 --> 00:18:31,285
I mean it hasn't
happened, of course,

350
00:18:31,285 --> 00:18:34,068
but then we've got
Bart Boswinkel, so.

351
00:18:34,350 --> 00:18:35,899
You expressed a
great deal of pride,

352
00:18:35,899 --> 00:18:37,307
in fact, you wore
the pride on your face

353
00:18:37,307 --> 00:18:38,821
when you were
talking about IDNs.

354
00:18:38,821 --> 00:18:42,520
No one's been more involved
in the development of CCs

355
00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:45,688
and bringing them
within the ICANN world,

356
00:18:45,688 --> 00:18:47,494
than probably
you have.

357
00:18:47,494 --> 00:18:50,060
What other points
of pride do you have?

358
00:18:50,060 --> 00:18:52,060
Well, I am going to answer that
but before I do I think

359
00:18:52,060 --> 00:18:55,892
I must acknowledge the
work that Lesley Cowley did

360
00:18:55,892 --> 00:18:58,420
when she took over from me
as Chair of the ccNSO,

361
00:18:58,420 --> 00:19:03,300
because she worked really hard
to increase the membership.

362
00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:06,262
So that really does
need to be acknowledged.

363
00:19:09,944 --> 00:19:13,176
I think probably
setting it up.

364
00:19:13,176 --> 00:19:15,736
I mean there are
lessons to be learned

365
00:19:15,736 --> 00:19:18,300
in all sorts of ways,
in what everybody does.

366
00:19:18,300 --> 00:19:20,600
I think, for example, one of the
things that the CC's did was

367
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,777
when we set ourselves up we got
our four members in each region,

368
00:19:24,777 --> 00:19:28,625
and the first thing we did
was a review of ourselves.

369
00:19:28,625 --> 00:19:32,262
Because we thought, well,
we're now here, we exist.

370
00:19:32,262 --> 00:19:35,385
Now we need to find out
what we need to change

371
00:19:35,385 --> 00:19:39,148
in order for other people
who haven't joined, to join.

372
00:19:39,148 --> 00:19:44,187
And that first step actually
broke down a lot of barriers,

373
00:19:44,187 --> 00:19:46,385
because people
went oh, okay,

374
00:19:46,385 --> 00:19:51,725
so you're not just going to
close the doors and carry on.

375
00:19:51,725 --> 00:19:54,633
But I think,
in general terms, Brad,

376
00:19:54,633 --> 00:19:59,000
I think this model
is just so interesting.

377
00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,000
It's extremely hard work,
but it's so interesting,

378
00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,500
and so important
as a model that, for me,

379
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:09,368
having CC's actually
agree to be part of it

380
00:20:09,368 --> 00:20:11,618
is the most
important thing.

381
00:20:11,618 --> 00:20:14,203
I used to say
to this to people,

382
00:20:14,203 --> 00:20:18,023
how can you, at home,
claim your right,

383
00:20:18,023 --> 00:20:22,013
to run an
independent ccTLD

384
00:20:22,013 --> 00:20:23,493
where you're not
run by your government,

385
00:20:23,493 --> 00:20:25,253
you've got a membership
based organization and

386
00:20:25,253 --> 00:20:26,903
you run it and you
say you do outreach.

387
00:20:26,903 --> 00:20:29,973
How can do that at home,
and claim the right to do that,

388
00:20:29,973 --> 00:20:33,450
and then not support the
equivalent model internationally?

389
00:20:33,493 --> 00:20:34,493
It just doesn't
make sense.

390
00:20:34,493 --> 00:20:36,983
Otherwise, it's your
legitimacy that's on the line.

391
00:20:36,983 --> 00:20:38,538
What came back at you
when you argued that?

392
00:20:38,538 --> 00:20:39,569
Well, it's nothing
to do with that.

393
00:20:39,569 --> 00:20:40,987
It's not you,
it's them.

394
00:20:40,987 --> 00:20:42,040
It's all
of that stuff.

395
00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,379
All the stuff about
it's not that, it's about will I...

396
00:20:44,379 --> 00:20:49,831
Is joining the ccSNO putting me
in a contractual with ICANN?

397
00:20:49,831 --> 00:20:51,831
No. Well,
prove it to me.

398
00:20:51,831 --> 00:20:55,331
We had to have a lot of
that kind of I make this claim,

399
00:20:55,331 --> 00:20:57,705
and until you prove
to me that I'm wrong,

400
00:20:57,705 --> 00:20:59,000
I'm not going
to do anything.

401
00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:01,000
So the response of,
well no, actually you have to

402
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,509
show me that
your claim is right.

403
00:21:02,509 --> 00:21:03,509
They wanted a
proof of the negative.

404
00:21:03,509 --> 00:21:05,198
It doesn't work — a proof
of a negative, exactly.

405
00:21:05,198 --> 00:21:07,198
But I think that
was a long time ago,

406
00:21:07,198 --> 00:21:10,150
and we have a very
vibrant ccTLD community,

407
00:21:10,150 --> 00:21:13,582
and a lot of people
who were very anti

408
00:21:13,582 --> 00:21:16,852
have now turned
around and are part of it.

409
00:21:16,852 --> 00:21:18,570
And that's
definitely something

410
00:21:18,570 --> 00:21:20,635
that I think we
should all be proud of.

411
00:21:20,635 --> 00:21:22,865
I think ICANN
should be proud

412
00:21:22,865 --> 00:21:25,368
of it's relationship with
the ccTLD community.

413
00:21:25,368 --> 00:21:30,498
I think the ccTLDs generally
are pretty proud of what they do.

414
00:21:30,498 --> 00:21:31,871
And that's great.

415
00:21:31,871 --> 00:21:34,080
That's a fascinating history.
Chris Disspain, thank you very much.

416
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:34,943
Thank you.