Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Cloud Gate

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Closed discussions from Commons:Deletion requests/Files in Category:Cloud Gate
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Files in Category:Cloud Gate

No COM:FOP in the US for sculptures.

russavia (talk) 09:52, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Delete. -> Commons:FOP#United_States--Wdwd (talk) 11:04, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
 Delete, especially Cloud Sphere1.jpg was deleted before (see Commons:Deletion requests/Image:Cloud Sphere.jpg), transferred to de.wikipedia (with a note "deleted on commons") but nevertheless transferred back to here... --Isderion (talk) 11:52, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
 Delete. I can't find his email or other way to contact the sculptor or we could ask him if he wants to join my fledgling project.--Canoe1967 (talk) 22:20, 2 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I found an email for one of his galleries and asked if they would contact him to release images of some or all of his works.--Canoe1967 (talk) 16:10, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I received a quick reply that my email will be forwarded to the sculptor. Hopefully he will provide OTRS. --Canoe1967 (talk) 18:24, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
that would be really cool --Isderion (talk) 19:30, 3 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: Without OTRS permission after 9 days Alan (talk) 11:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 2

No COM:FOP in the US for sculptures.

russavia (talk) 16:25, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted -FASTILY 07:40, 26 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 3

As per this decision.

-- Tuválkin ✉ 09:09, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

--TonyTheTiger (talk) 05:25, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
TonyTheTiger, copyright law is aggressive, and shark lawyers of famous architects and powerful city halls are aggressive even more. These deletion requests are defensive. Since some images are used in some articles of English Wikipedia, a good case could be made for their retention as fair use, according to the rules of the English Wikipedia; ditto, m.m., for any other Wikipedia or Wikimedia projected that is contaminated with a fair use clause. (But these images would still have to be deleted in Commons.) -- Tuválkin ✉ 11:09, 16 August 2014 (UTC) (revised: -- Tuválkin ✉ 01:35, 18 August 2014 (UTC))[reply]
I think the principle of Commons:De Minimis applies to File:2005-10-13 2880x1920 chicago above millennium park.jpg and File:The Bean and McCormick Tribune Plaza.jpg. I think the FAC for CLoud Gate on en addressed the reflection picture. Ruhrfisch (talk) 14:10, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I  agree with Elcobbola above and therefore  withdraw the nomination for those images. -- Tuválkin ✉ 01:35, 18 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted some, kept some. For File:The Bean and McCormick Tribune Plaza.jpg, since it's being used to illustrate the plaza, it would be a better to crop out The Bean rather than deleting the whole thing. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 07:11, 22 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 4

Obviously, it's time for another Cloud Gate DR. I've tried to be as generous as I felt was reasonable about only including the images that violate the copyright in this sculpture.

For context, en:Cloud Gate is a public sculpture erected in 2006 in McCormick Park in Chicago. It is not only copyrighted (with no FOP for sculpture in the US), but the City of Chicago has licensed it from the artist, and requires permission for any commercial use of photographs (which is incompatible with Commons).

I've tried to weed out the ones where either the Bean is a de minimis aspect of an image of the park itself, or where it's shape is not visible and it's only 'a mirrored object'. Most of these are simply not okay.

Reventtalk 12:21, 15 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I have sought permission via email from the author (Anish Kapoor) to retain my photo, as there is no FoP for sculpture in the US. The attempt to remove nearly all remaining depictions of Cloud Gate is sudden and troubling. -- adsitm 16:48, 15 Dec 2016 (UTC)
I'm sorry that you find this 'sudden and troubling', but I suggest looking at the history of this DR page. As you will see, nearly all images of this work have been deleted on a periodic basis for half a decade now (previously, 'all' images were deleted, but those DRs were filed for the 'category' instead of just files in it, and are thus not here). That copyvio images are sent to DR is nothing novel, this is just something that most people don't realize is copyrighted and like to photograph, to the extent that photography of it is discussed in it's article. Reventtalk 03:38, 16 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination. Christian Ferrer (talk) 05:57, 22 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 5

Regular cleaning of this category of new uploads of images that depict too much of this copyrighted work of art.

- Reventtalk 22:04, 28 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination. --Jcb (talk) 15:22, 3 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 6

No COM:FOP for sculpture in the US, as per Commons:Deletion requests/Category:Cloud Gate and the above.

  — Jeff G. ツ 04:07, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In File:The Bean and McCormick Tribune Plaza.jpg, the bean is de minimis, image hardly even has the bean in the photo. The sculpture is not even visible in File:Tented cloud gate.jpg. File:Cloud gate construction.jpg is simply a photo of a construction site, the sculpture had yet to be erected. It is inarguably de minimis in File:2005-10-13 2880x1920 chicago above millennium park.jpg. It is also minimus in File:Millennium park,chicago.JPG. It is hardly even visible in File:Millenium Park (7391867314).jpg. Seems to be de minimus in File:Bean from Kemper Tower (14958184744).jpg. Also, hardly the primary focal point of the image File:Chicago Bean.jpg. Not at all included in the image File:Cloud gate, Chicago skyline.jpg, as far as I can tell (not sure why it is in this category). Certainly not included in the image File:2008TIBE Day5 Hall1 ThemeSquare On the Road with Cloud Gate.jpg (should not be in this category at all). Not the primary focal point of the image File:The Bean - Millennium Park - panoramio.jpg.

Some of these certainly should be spared, and the category itself should not be deleted. SecretName101 (talk) 04:13, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@SecretName101: Considering File:Cloud gate construction.jpg, in this photo, I see a cross section of what looks like one of the sculptor's ribs, with cross-supports. This looks to me like derivative work of the sculptor's copyrighted mechanical drawings.   — Jeff G. ツ 01:20, 4 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
However, this segment essentially (from what is visible in this image) takes a spoke-and-wheel shape, a physical form that has existed since early human history. It would be hard to argue that a photograph of this structural element violates his unique intellectual property. SecretName101 (talk) 01:45, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The deletion of File:2005-10-13 2880x1920 chicago above millennium park.jpg would be particularly catastrophic, and utterly unnecessary. This is a valuable (and widely-used) image, in which the sculpture inarguably is de minimus. SecretName101 (talk) 04:28, 2 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've got to disagree with this. If the image were just a distorted picture of the public space, it should be deleted as out of scope. The value of the image is that it's not just the space but a reflection in the sculpture. — Rhododendrites talk |  22:26, 3 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Rhododendrites on this one. That one is indefensible, as its sole focus is the reflection on the sculpture. SecretName101 (talk) 01:31, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would like to add another image to this discussion. It was not in the category at the time of the nomination (I have since added it), but it does feature the sculpture. File:ParkGrill.jpg. Should this be deleted or re-cropped (with the original version deleted) to remove the Bean, or is the image fine as is. Thoughts??? SecretName101 (talk) 19:05, 6 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: most per nom. 'kept some due to de minimis or similar. --JuTa 09:47, 13 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 7

still copyrighted, noting here so that it may be undeleted someday

Jon Kolbert (talk) 05:54, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: speedily deleted as copyvios. --Jon Kolbert (talk) 05:54, 25 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 8

Copyrighted work, no freedom of panorama for public art in the US.

— Rhododendrites talk |  16:43, 26 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination. .     Jim . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 21:25, 14 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 9

No FOP for sculpture in the US, and per Commons:Deletion requests/Category:Cloud Gate and the above.

  — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 16:35, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep File:The Bean Chicago United States Travel Photography (112096191).jpeg is just a reflection on a surface, I don't see anything copyrightable there. This photograph also shows such a simple and usual object: File:The Bean (30263803).jpeg that I have difficulty understanding why it would be above the threshold of originality. Was there some case on court about it, or something similar?-- Darwin Ahoy! 22:22, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@DarwIn: Please see COM:FOP US and Commons:Public art and copyrights in the US.   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 22:36, 17 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Jeff G.: I know, but there is also TOO. You can't simply declare something is art and expect protection. Something that looks like a mere ellipse in a reflective material look way below the TOO for the US. But for File:The Bean Chicago United States Travel Photography (112096191).jpeg it's obviously  Keep, there's nothing copyrightable there, at least that I can see.-- Darwin Ahoy! 01:14, 18 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
 Delete all as blatant derivative work copyvios. DarwIn TOO is no longer relevant if this sculpture by its copyright-conscious artist w:Anish Kapoor has caused hot water to several users in the past, most notably NRA (National Rifle Association) when they included an image of this artwork in their video. See [1], [2], and [3], which I used as sources for another entry under "United States" in w:Freedom of panorama enwiki article and its Tagalog Wikipedia translation. All non-trivial images of this sculpture must be removed (US de minimis is much sharper, see COM:DM United States, it uses "triviality" concept than "incidental"). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:30, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@JWilz12345: TOO does matter here; I could for example extract one of the squiggly lines from Donald Duck's head and it would suddenly fall below TOO. So just because the work as a whole is above TOO, doesn't mean that a small portion of the work is necessarily also above TOO. For images like File:The Bean Chicago United States Travel Photography (112096191).jpeg, the shape of the outline is almost certainly below TOO. So the artist here has essentially created an algorithm to transform the surrounding Chicago skyline, in the form of a mirror reflection. The question becomes: Does the creator of this algorithm have enough creative input to have a copyright stake on its output, which was chosen by the photographer? -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:39, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@King of Hearts: it seems we are entering another part of the gray area of the no U.S. freedom of panorama for any protected public artworks concept. The sculpture may be a simple kidney-shaped bean that is "ordinary" in the eyes of most people, though it has created headaches for one end-user (National Rifle Association). Kapoor himself is a noted litigous artist, and one attorney asserts that only the City of Chicago has the right to commercially use images of this copyrighted work. Perhaps COM:Project scope/Precautionary principle may roll in? JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 04:48, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Part of PCP is that the likelihood of the creator suing should not be taken into account in these decisions. That's why we kept the monkey selfie. In some of these closeups, I just don't see anything copyrightable. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 06:00, 14 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like the U.S. Copyright Office considers it creative enough to be copyrighted. [4] Ixfd64 (talk) 17:44, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some of them can be cropped or have the work of art blurred out of them, and still be useful. I deleted the obvious cases, though.-- Darwin Ahoy! 16:39, 3 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 10

Another set of derivative work copyvios: of a sculpture protected by copyright by its living artist w:Anish Kapoor. Previously these were categorized under Category:Millennium Park so they got undetected. See [5] and [6] for the basis of nomination for these perhaps last non-trivial images of the copyrighted sculpture. There is no freedom of panorama for all copyrighted artworks in the United States, see COM:FOP US. US de minimis is sharper (COM:DM United States), as it uses "triviality" concept instead of "incidental".

JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:43, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Delete all per COM:FOP US, Commons:Deletion requests/Category:Cloud Gate, and the above.   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 10:12, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 11

Still another set of derivative work copyright violations. No FOP of any sort for copyrighted public works in the U.S. except architecture, and sculptor Anish Kapoor does not allow free culture (commercial) reuses of visual appearances of "his" artwork! See also above nominations. American de minimis uses triviality concept instead of incidental/accessory concept like those in Europe or much of Asia.

JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 05:53, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Comment: Has the sculpture actually been determined to meet the threshold of originality? I know Kapoor filed for copyright registration, but it's not clear if the registration was granted. Ixfd64 (talk) 17:14, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like it is copyrighted. [7] Ixfd64 (talk) 17:38, 27 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
 Delete all per COM:FOP US, Commons:Deletion requests/Category:Cloud Gate, and the above.   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 11:27, 28 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination. Cleaned up the nomination. --Ellin Beltz (talk) 19:24, 5 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 12

There is no freedom of panorama for copyrighted public art in the United States, and none of the nominated images show the sculpture in a trivial manner (U.S. de minimis is too narrower than European ones). This sculpture has been the subject of a copyright lawsuit by its living sculptor, Anish Kapoor, against a commercial user, NRA. See also the following resources regarding Kapoor's lawsuit against NRA: Artnet, The Guardian, and BBC.

JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 09:41, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

 Delete all per COM:FOP US, Commons:Deletion requests/Category:Cloud Gate, and the above.   — Jeff G. ツ please ping or talk to me 11:35, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
 Delete all per Jeff G. File:The Bean Reflecting (pingnews) (222198126).jpg may be considered de minimis as it only shows a reflective surface, but the quality of the image is so poor that it is not worth keeping IMO. Ixfd64 (talk) 18:11, 16 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted all but one per DM. — Racconish 💬 15:04, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]


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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 13

Several new files have been added that populate this category. I'm also tagging several older files that haven't been discussed before to gather consensus on whether they should be kept on de minimis grounds.

At issue is that these files depict Cloud Gate, a copyrighted sculpture permanently installed in the US where there is no freedom of panorama for public art. Quoting an earlier successful deletion request, "this sculpture has been the subject of a copyright lawsuit by its living sculptor, Anish Kapoor, against a commercial user, NRA. See also the following resources regarding Kapoor's lawsuit against NRA: Artnet, The Guardian, and BBC." IMO the litigousness of the copyright holder should not affect our consistent application of standards around copyright law but it's been brought up before so I suppose it's worth bringing up again.

First, there is one photo that is entirely of Cloud Gate for which a de minimis rationale would not apply:

Second, there are several photos in which Cloud Gate appears at a distince within the larger context of the setting. A de minimis arguement could be made for these, and we have kept two files in the past (File:2005-10-13 2880x1920 chicago above millennium park.jpg and File:Millennium park,chicago.JPG) on these grounds. However, in both of those cases Cloud Gate is a significantly smaller and less focal portion of the image.

Third, several photos depict a portion of Cloud Gate up close, often with the inclusion of other elements in the foreground or background. Do these files qualify as de minimis inclusion of the copyrighted work? Consider this file which had most of Cloud Gate coropped out to focus on the background elements instead.

Finally, one photo is simply a selfie taken by way of the mirrored surface of Cloud Gate. This might be argued to be entirely a photo of the sculpture, or to be a completely de minimis usage. In either case, I'm nominating it here for consensus:

Any of these files that aren't deleted (or that are partially cropped and saved) can be added to Category:Incidental views of the Cloud Gate. Thanks! Bobamnertiopsis (talk) 17:37, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]


I disagree that the statue is a "clear focal point" of either File:Chicago skyscrapers on a rainy night (52036718532).jpg or File:Bilde(62) (801715).jpg. I would keep both of those. SecretName101 (talk) 19:48, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep File:Bean Selfie.jpg - here is a reflective surface. Reflections are not subject to copyright. The artist did not invent a mirrored surface. The copyright object cannot be distinguished as different from a mirror by this close up image. -- Ooligan (talk) 13:34, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination - kept one. .     Jim . . . (Jameslwoodward) (talk to me) 20:58, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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Files in Category:Cloud Gate 14

[edit]

No freedom of panorama for sculpture in the US, and per Commons:Deletion requests/Category:Cloud Gate and the above. Bobamnertiopsis (talk) 03:39, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: per nomination, many similar earlier listings. COM:DW. --Infrogmation of New Orleans (talk) 20:46, 24 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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