User talk:Black Kite

"And while I'm alive, I'll make tiny changes to earth." Frightened Rabbit

Black Kite Hi, I'm an administrator here, and have been since 2007. I'll try to answer any questions here as soon as I can, though I do have periods where I'm not available. For admins: if you think I've done something really f***ing stupid and I don't respond to a question about it, please feel free to reverse it ... we can work it out later on.

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Hi Black Kite, in the recent edit here "{{In the news/footer" was removed. Best, CMD (talk) 08:13, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks, got it as soon as I posted it but then my browser decided to hang while I was fixing it! Black Kite (talk) 08:14, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You can't get a more reliable source in these matters than Burke's Peerage - I have already quoted the link and if you don't have the book 107th edition you can search online for the format of nobles https://www.burkespeerage.com/search.php it is standard practice to provide info on the current noble's family and heir to the title, lineage, etc. Link above search for Hypatia Lumi Brim-DeForest and Huxley Byron Brim-DeForest Kellycrak88 (talk) 08:23, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

• Burke's peerage isn't the problem. Adding details of information about non-notable children is. Black Kite (talk) 08:24, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
• plus you are still using "armorialregister.com", which doesn't seem to be a reliable source but a purely commercial venture, and you are at 4RR (which, considering that you warned me about edit warring yesterday when I was at 2RR, is something you should be well aware of). Fram (talk) 09:03, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are breaking the the standard format accepted across wikipedia for noble titles. It is standard practice to show the lineage of noble families, look at any peer's page, you will see the peer's family members. Hence Burke's Peerage has this format showing the family. Especially in this case the heir to the title and family have titles Younger and Maid of Balvaird. Their arms are registered with the Lord Lyon the monarch's representative in Scotland. All the info is confirmed in Burke's Peerage. In regards to the Armorial register it might very well be a commercial organisation but that doesn't mean it's international register of arms it's invalid. Every herald of every country collects fees for registering and producing arms, they're government agencies, this doesn't mean they're invalid. Kellycrak88 (talk) 09:44, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The armorialregister.com is not a government agency though, they are a private company with no official status as far as I can see. For £100 you get a PDF certificate that you have registered with them... Fram (talk) 10:06, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're ignoring the fact I put Burke's Peerage, it is an established source of noble families. Anyhow, putting Burke's aside a moment, Armorial Register still verifies an applicants information it's an international register of arms and I believe they've been around some decades, I don't see why you're disqualifying that as a source. You can''t just pay £100 and get anything you like put up. The guy behind it is a trusted industry source I've watched his youtube presentations on coats of arms he knows his stuff.

http://armorialregister.com/arms-sco/brim-deforest-h-arms.html

All it does it record arms registered at heralds. See the grant it says Grant: The Court of the Lord Lyon, Scotland, 14th January 2020, (Page 97, Volume 93) “Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland”.

That means her arms as Hypatia Brim-DeForest, Maid of Balvaird is registered with the Lord Lyon the herald in Scotland representing the monarch in Scotland.

It is 100% relative to the page. Claiming the family are not notable when they're listed in Burke's Peerage as a noble family and ALL OTHER PAGES FOR PEERS ON WIKIPEDIA have family members listed, is breaking standard format.

I welcome other opinions from others to reach consensus before the page the is reverted. Kellycrak88 (talk) 11:03, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would strongly suggest you do not revert the page again. We absolutely don't need birthdates and full names of children. See WP:BLPPRIVACY. All that is required is "he is married to X and has two children". Black Kite (talk) 11:17, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Therefore are you going to edit the 1000+ peer's pages with family and heir listed removing their DOB?

I await your edits:

Peerage of the United Kingdom

Peerage of Great Britain

If you don't remove all the DOBs then I remain open to others for consenus. Kellycrak88 (talk) 11:27, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Such arms are pure vanity projects, everyone in Scotland in good standing Will have them granted if they apply to the Lord Lyons office. Including the arms of two toddlers, because their father bought an empty "baron" title and registered their arms is complete overkill. We record notable facts about notable people or subjects: the armorials of these children, or their grand but never used titles like "maid of ", don't belong on Wikipedia. But such preposterous "facts" seem to abound in the articles about these "barons", e.g. the claim "From birth he was formally styled as Mr Brady Brim-DeForest" in this same article is just silly. Fram (talk) 11:46, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not accurate. Lord Lyon the monarchs representative in Scotland has discretion to issue Barons additaments appropriate to the Dignity of a Baron in the Baronage of Scotland AND letters patent recognising their title in the name of the crown. Their noble title is part of their name for official purposes and is a recognised UK title of nobility and honour due to the noble history of these titles. The dignity of baron and the hereditary offices associated are protected in law by the Scotland 2004 act. The vast majority of baronies are kept in the same family for generations and are never sold, very few are available for sale. In some cases Barons have an ancient right to run a baron's court that has civil precedence. Barons are involved in ceremony of state. Baronial robes can be worn. It's looking as if you are dismissing these titles because of your bias or perhaps misunderstanding against the fact they can be bought and sold. You're welcome to read more here https://www.scotsbarons.org/ the official body The Convention of the Baronage of Scotland an ancient institution that dates back to one of the Three Estates of Scotland.

You're also welcome to read more here:

1. "Page 31: "...the owner (can) claim ennoblement by the "nobilitating effect" of the "NOBLE quality" of the feudal title on which the land is held. The title of "Baron of So-and-So" or "Baroness of So-and-So" can be adopted... there is a right to relevant baronial additaments to the coat of arms. Baronial robes can be worn. The baron can, in theory, hold a baron's court, appoint a baron baillie to be judge, and exercise a minor civil and criminal jurisdiction."" (PDF). Scottish Law Commission Government Website. 16 June 2024. Retrieved 16 June 2024.

Kellycrak88 (talk) 14:20, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh right, baronial robes can be worn, that changes everything... Fram (talk) 14:33, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As for your rather selective quote there, that describes the situation before the law changed, and is immediately followed by a paragraph about sales of such titles: " In recent years a market in Scottish baronies has developed. We were informed by a dealer in baronies that in June 1997 the expected price for a barony, with no special features and a minimal amount of land of no value in itself, was about £60,000. Information from other sources suggests that the market value of baronies has not decreased since then." As for e.g. the courts, the document continues "the holder of land on a barony title still has, in theory but not in practice, the right to hold a baron's court" (so only in theory, and only if you held the land, not just the title). Further " the social, ceremonial and armorial aspects of baronies should be severed from landownership. Baronies should become non-territorial dignities." and " A privately owned criminal and civil jurisdiction, even if limited and fallen into disuse,57 is such an anachronistic and objectionable relic of feudalism that it must clearly be abolished. The jurisdictional rights of barons have no value and compensation for their abolition would be inappropriate and unnecessary". Basically, the document (which is a proposal only) makes it clear that the baronial title would become ceremonial, without rights to courts, salmon fishing, ... and detached from the land: just a title, which can be sold or inherited, and has no further role or power. Which seems to match with what I said previously. Fram (talk) 14:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]