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In the Mage Revised edition there is a rote called Heart's blood a mage can use with Prime 1 sphere. It reads as such.

The Mage can sacrifice their health for Quintessence, at a rate of one point per health level of bashing damage taken.

Considering the fact that bashing damage takes an hour to heal this rote feels a bit broken given being able to generate quintessence from thin air is a prime 5 ability. Are there any drawbacks to using this rote every hour so that you always have quintessence at hand?

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    \$\begingroup\$ The wording here is different from that given in this similar question: rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/211549/… \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jul 1 at 3:23
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    \$\begingroup\$ @GuybrushMcKenzie also different to what is in Mage Revised \$\endgroup\$
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 1 at 5:31
  • \$\begingroup\$ How come you quote the revised core book correctly in your other question but have a vastly different and more terse quote allegedly from the very same book here? \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Commented Jul 1 at 13:41
  • \$\begingroup\$ I was quoting from Enlightened Grimoire as I did not have access to my book drive. I'll edit it as soon as I'll get access to my books though the one I quoted appears to lack the type of damage it causes so I'll check the Verbana book. \$\endgroup\$ Commented Jul 1 at 22:46
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    \$\begingroup\$ @MaikoChikyu that supplement has some very shoddy summaries and is unofficial. \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Commented Jul 2 at 7:20

3 Answers 3

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Paradox, a possible lack of masochism, and the risk of Botching the roll.

Well, firstly, generating Quintessence this way would be caused by ripping it out of your Pattern, and that Bashing damage would hurt. You're using magic to physically harm yourself, so using it this way on a regular basis would probably require a degree of masochism. While there are definitely paradigms that would embrace that sort of masochistic approach to magic (e.g. many Esctatics, certain shamans, and some more ascetic Abrahamic paradigms), there are also others where it would not fit.

Also, causing physical damage to your body without an apparent cause may well cross the line into Vulgar magic and risk Paradox - though certain rituals (e.g. self-flagellation, exposure to extreme environmental conditions, or other forms of self-harm) would likely allow it to become Coincidental.

There's also the risk of Botching the spellcasting roll if you're habitually casting it, which may well have its own consequences you'd have to deal with.

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    \$\begingroup\$ it's not bashing damage - it's Pattern damage since 2nd edition, and never has been bashing, it's a missquote in the question. \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Commented Jul 1 at 12:34
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The health levels lost to Heart's Blood are not considered bashing damage.

The text of the rote isn't as you quoted it above; it reads as shown here. In both Mage Revised and in M20, Heart's Blood allows the mage to expend Health Levels as points of Quintessence, but in neither description does it refer to the loss of these health levels as "bashing damage" — in fact, it says in M20 that going past the 7th level, beyond incapacitated, can cause the Mage to die. Recovering Health Levels lost to this rote requires "time and bed rest" (MRev 182), which suggests a greater level of exhaustion than could be recovered by the mere passage of time. You'd be taking yourself out of action.

Plus, it wouldn't help — the Quintessence acquired is immediately spent.

The quintessence garnered from Heart's Blood does not go into the Mage's pattern but is immediately used to lower the difficulty of the test at hand. (M20, HDYDT, 50). You burn your pattern for "one last holy miracle" (MRev 182) in lieu of being able to draw on your Avatar to store quintessence. That's why it's merely Prime 1.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ Author of the question quoted the part that says it's bashing damage. Your answer is built on the assumption it is not. Can you add a part about how he misquoted, and source of your claims to the contrary? \$\endgroup\$
    – Mołot
    Commented Jul 1 at 9:12
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    \$\begingroup\$ @Mołot Clarified. \$\endgroup\$
    – Jadasc
    Commented Jul 1 at 10:07
  • \$\begingroup\$ @Mołot it's a quote from a summary in a 3rd party supplement allegedly gathering all rotes. However there are serious quality control concerns with that inofficial supplement - see full texts in other answers and the linked question. \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Commented Jul 2 at 8:45
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It's always Pattern Damage and with Heart's Blood has never been Bashing damage

The rote does not do bashing damage and never did, it has always done damage to the underlying pattern and always had special rules for when that damage would go away. In short, it can't be healed by magic and it is damage to the underlying pattern. Depending on the edition, it was pointed out more or less that it takes healing like any lethal or aggravated damage, like any normal mortal.

Since pattern damage is healing like any non-bashing damage, the time to recuperate the bruised level is not an hour, it's a whole day of rest and recuperation, but with the caveat that you can't speed it along with magic in any way.

Further, all the Quintessence created is instantly used to fuel an other, urgent "Now or never" spell and is pretty much how some martyrs burnt out their lives to achieve a miracle.

Edition Versions

M20

Heart’s Blood

Self-sacrifice allows a mage to use Prime 1 in order to draw upon his personal life-force; by cutting himself, pushing the limits of his endurance, working himself to exhaustion, or otherwise inflicting damage upon himself in order to draw upon his life-force, that character can “give till it hurts.” Each success on the Arete roll moves one point of Quintessence from the mage’s Pattern into the task at hand, lowering his difficulty at that task by -1 per point. (At the Storyteller’s discretion, this feat might allow the player to bend the usual -3 modifier limit; the usual limits on magick-roll difficulties, however, still apply.)

In game terms, a mage has 10 points of Quintessence in addition to that character’s Avatar Background and/ or his current Quintessence rating. Each of those Quintessence points translates to one health level, with the last three taking that mage below Incapacitated. If he uses those points, then he dies.

Damage inflicted by “heart’s blood” self-sacrifice can be healed only by time and rest, not by magick. And so, you probably won’t want to go beyond the Bruised level unless your mage is desperate enough to do whatever must be done.

Mage the Ascension: How do you do that, 20th Anniversary Edition, p.50.

Bashing Damage certainly exists (page 334, 406, 412), but, whenever bashing damage is called for, it's explicitly notioned as such. Such as the callout "#2 = Bashing damage, not lethal." in the Explosives chart (page 455). In regards to magic, it's explicitly called out on page 504: Mind the only sphere that even is able to inflict bashing damage, all other spheres do lethal, unless it's Time or Correspondence alone (who can't do damage at all singly), and Entropy (which can't do damage below 4 on its own, and at 4 does aggravated on its own).

So yes, the standard rules dictate lethal damage to the pattern here, because Prime is not Mind and does, on its own, lethal damage.

Revised

• Heart’s Blood — An initiate of Prime can easily sense the flow of Quintessence through his own body — his life energy. This energy flows from the Tellurian, through the Life Pattern and back out to rejoin the cosmos. Each point corresponds to a health level, the last three on beyond Incapacitated and their loss resulting in death.

In desperate times, mages skilled in Prime — typically the Celestial Chorus and the Verbena — can push themselves beyond their limits and “give ’til it hurts,” taking the additional health levels as points of Quintessence above and beyond what is stored in their Avatars. Such damage may only be healed by time and bed rest, not magic, so most mages will usually only risk the Bruised health level. Mages of the Chorus, however, have burned themselves out in acts of martyrdom to perform one last holy miracle, while Verbena with low Avatar ratings often use their Bruised health level as a power reservoir, considering the sacrifice of heart’s blood more holy than the spiritual energy used by most mages.

Mage the Ascension, Revised Edition, p.182.

Mage Revised does know Bashing damage, but page 151 specifies that all magic effects do lethal damage unless specified otherwise. That list only goes Mind (Bashing only), Entropy below 4 (no damage) and Forces getting one Bonus damage. The Chart on 209 specifies likewise:

Scoring Damage: Each success expended to score damage inflicts up to two levels of damage. For Mind attacks, this damage is bashing; for most other Spheres, it’s lethal. Charged with Quintessence, it’s aggravated. Forces attacks inflict one extra level of damage automatically.

Mage the Ascension, Revised Edition, p.209.

As such, lethal damage to the pattern it is, because it is not a mind effect, and Prime inflicts at least lethal damage.

Sorcerer's Crusade

Heart's Blood (• Prime) In desperate straits, a sorcerer can reach into his very Essence and pull Quintessence from his soul. By praying to whatever God or gods he follows, the mystick concentrates his inner reserves into much-needed power. As that power flows outward, so too does his life. A true martyr can literally burn himself away from within while performing a final miracle. While miracle-workers and Pagans are notorious for this sort of sacrifice, any magus — even a Daedalean — with the right Arts can perform it.

[In game terms, each magus has 10 points of Quintessence above and beyond his Daemon rating and/ or Quintessence score. Each one of these points translates to a Health Level; the last three take the magus below Incapacitated. If he uses these points, he dies.

[Through this weavery, the magician can lap those reserves. A successful Arete roll drains Quintessence points. — and Health Levels — according the Damage and Duration chart. Each Health Level equals one point of Quintessence. This self-inflicted damage cannot be healed magickally — only normal rest and recovery can restore the lost life force. Once channeled, the Quintessence may be used normally. This spell does not allow a magus to tap another being's reserves, only his own.]

Mage: the Sorcerer's Crusade, p.269.

There is no "Bashing Damage" in Sorcerer's Crusade. The Chapter on Damage is called "Mortality", starts at page 206, and explains that there is Damage marked with "checks", there's Aggravated damage demarked with X, and optionally there's a stunning effect of receiving damage. So, "normal" damage it is, which is what later revisions call lethal after bashing damage was added.

2nd Edition

• Heart's Blood - A Disciple of Prime can sense the flow of Quintessence - his life energy - through his own body. As vampires well know, each human has about 10 points of this upon which they may feed. Each point corresponds to a Health Level. The last three go beyond Incapacitated; losing them will kill him.

In desperate times, mages skilled in Prime can push them· selves beyond their limits and "give till it hurts," taking the additional Health Levels as points of Quintessence above and beyond what is stored in their Avarars. Such damage may only he healed by time and bed rest, not magick (see "Better Body"), so most mages will usually only risk the first "Bruised" Health Level. Mages of the Chorus, however, have martyred themselves to perform one last holy miracle, while Verbena with low Avatar racings often consider the sacrifice of heart's blood more holy than the spiritual energy used by most mages.

Mage the Ascension, 2nd Edition, p.214.

As Page 170/171 tells, only those damages listed as Aggravated on 171 are, all others are "normal" damage. There is no Bashing damage in 2nd Edition Mage, in fact, the whole health track does not differentiate any Damage other than Aggravated Damage. Neither the introduction to Health (page 137) nor the Injury Chapter (page 264) do tell you that anything like Bashing damage even exists. There's only Normal (/) and Aggravated Damage (X). Note that this means there is no * of later editions or other games!

1st Edition

Mage the Ascension, 1st Edition, p.210, does not list this classic but instead, a way to cram Quint into your pattern, not convert your life force to Quintessence. Book of Shadows - the dedicated player's guide - does not have it either, Book of Chantries does not deliver on the topic of magic effects at all, and Book of Mirrors as the Storyteller Guide does neither. So far, I could not locate a source that proves that this effect existed in 1st Edition or before 1997.

Origin of problem

The problem is the very shoddily edited 3rd party Enlightened Grimoire by Charles Siegel. The book has correct pointers to rotes, but the summaries are wrong. For example, it writes the totally inappropriate summary claiming bashing damage where all quotes above clearly state that it is pattern damage.

erronious source of problem

It also seems to comingle the Heart's Blood with the similar "Self Sacrifice" from Verbena Revised, which is distinctly different - and more powerful - and also makes clear that it is pattern damage. Note that this rote is absent in the Traditionbook Verbena from 1st Edition, and even in the revised edition it did conflict with the core book's Heart's Blood.

This different Rote could source a whole 14 Quintessence without killing you: Going for 14 points of Quintessence from your pattern by taking 7 lethal damage puts you in a coma for months, while Heart's Blood only gives you 7 points if you put yourself in that coma - and taking the 8th to 10th automatically kills you.

Self Sacrifice (Prime •)

The Norse god Odin hung himself from the branches of the World Tree to gain knowledge of the runes. So must the Verbena sometimes sacrifice for their magic. Rituals of pain and endurance — as simple as cutting runes into flesh or scourging or as complex as hanging in imitation of Odin’s sacrifice or the Native American Sun Dance — fuel Verbena magic. Other mages consider such primitive and painful rituals unnecessary, but the Verbena understand that sometimes pain is the best way to know that you are alive, and the willingness to sacrifice is one of the greatest strengths.

System: For each level of bashing damage that she suffers, the mage gains a point of Quintessence she can use for a particular spell. For each level of lethal damage, the mage gains an additional point of Quintessence. This damage is done directly to the mage’s Pattern, so it cannot be healed using magic, only time and rest. In essence, the Verbena is drawing upon her own life force, breaking down the Quintessence of her own being, to fuel her magic.

MET: Apprentice Prime. Each health level of bashing damage suffered adds a Quintessence Trait that can only be used for a single rote named when this rote is cast. Lethal health levels add Quintessence Traits at the same rate, but they can be used for any rote. No form of magical healing can repair damage done by this rote, only natural rest. Grades of Success: No effect.

Dark Ages: Old Faith mages cast this spell using Autumn •, while the Valdaermen cast it using Galdrar •.

Verbena, Revised Edition, p.67.

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  • \$\begingroup\$ FWIW, I think the quote in the question comes from Enlightened Grimoire by Charles Siegel, which is a M20 supplement collecting rotes from other sourcebooks. I don't have the book available at the moment to check but it might be where the error originates from. \$\endgroup\$
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 1 at 13:06
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    \$\begingroup\$ @VLAZ That clearly speaks against the quality of the supplement, if it gets a thing wrong that has very consistent wording since 2nd edition \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Commented Jul 1 at 13:07
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    \$\begingroup\$ A review on the page (the only 3 star one) does suggest that there are other errors throughout the book. It talks about minor-ish stuff but overall I get the impression it's not very thoroughly checked by an editor. I'll check the book later today after work to see if the quote at least comes from there. \$\endgroup\$
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 1 at 13:14
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    \$\begingroup\$ OK, I found that quote in the Enlightened Grimoire: this is the entry in the book. It's indeed wrong. I spot checked some of the other rotes listed and the short description is some times too short and some times missing details. At any rate, The Heart's Blood rote seems to possibly have been intermingled with Self Sacrifice from Verbena revised. Although that's also odd since it's pattern damage but still bashing or lethal. \$\endgroup\$
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 1 at 16:01
  • \$\begingroup\$ @VLAZ Thanks! please add a proper review there about the absolute shoddy summaries then! \$\endgroup\$
    – Trish
    Commented Jul 1 at 16:24

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