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I was just reviewing classical mechanics problems on Khan Academy and got the following question:

enter image description here

I knew that the angular speeds at points II, III, and IV must be equal, but I'm not sure how you'd prove that the angular speed at point I is equal as well, since the usual formula $ω=\frac{v}{r}$ just gives $ω=\frac{0}{0}$.

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  • $\begingroup$ "Angular speed" (a.k.a., angular velocity) isn't a measure of distance travelled per unit time, It's a measure of rotation rate. It's measured in radians per second (or cycles per second, or degrees per second, or RPM.) $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 27, 2021 at 19:54
  • $\begingroup$ @SolomonSlow Right, but how does a point at the axis of rotation even have a rotation rate? $\endgroup$
    – Logicus
    Commented Dec 27, 2021 at 20:30
  • $\begingroup$ Are you asking because a "point" is dimensionless? Because we can't tell which way it is facing? But the disk in which the point is embedded is not dimensionless, and we can mark it, and so be able to tell which way it is facing. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 27, 2021 at 22:28
  • $\begingroup$ Your confusing tangential velocity with angular velocity $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 27, 2021 at 22:29
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    $\begingroup$ Duplicate Proving that the angular velocity of a rigid body is the same about any point $\endgroup$
    – Farcher
    Commented Dec 27, 2021 at 23:48

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The point of the question is to demonstrate that the angular velocity $\omega$ of the spinning disk, measured from it's centre, is the same for all points on the disk. You can imagine placing an infinitely long rod parallel to the plane of the disc, with one end of the rod positioned at the centre of the disk and the other end infinitely far away. When the disk is spinning, the rod sweeps out an angle $\phi$ at all points of the rod (including the point at the centre of the disk). Now the angular velocity is the rate of change of $\phi$ with respect to time:$$\omega=\frac{d\phi(t)}{dt}.$$Notice how $\phi$ has only $t$ dependence. To show that this is the same for all points on the disk, let $r$ be the distance from the centre of the disk to some point on the disk. Now taking the derivative of $\omega$ with respect to $r$ gives us$$\frac{d\omega}{dr}=\frac{d}{dr}\left(\frac{d\phi(t)}{dt}\right)=0.$$This means that $\omega$ is the same for all points on the disk (analogous to the infinite rod sweeping out the same angle along every point).

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  • $\begingroup$ Thanks for the answer. I understand why all points on a rigid disc have the same angular velocity, but I still don't understand how that could be true of the point right at the axis of rotation. This point seems to be unique: since there is zero distance between it and the axis, it doesn't sweep out an angle with respect to the axis as the disc rotates. Is there a more sophisticated definition of angular velocity that I'm missing? Also, is the 'dr' inside the parentheses in the second equation supposed to be 'dt'? $\endgroup$
    – Logicus
    Commented Dec 28, 2021 at 3:38
  • $\begingroup$ Yes, I made a correction. I have already proved that angular velocity is the same regardless of the distance from the centre. But intuitively, you can imagine rather than a point at the centre, a cylinder. Then as the disk spins, so does the cylinder, sweeping out the respective angle. $\endgroup$ Commented Dec 28, 2021 at 3:50
  • $\begingroup$ But then wouldn't that destroy the zero-dimensionality of the point? Is there another way to intuitively understand it? $\endgroup$
    – Logicus
    Commented Dec 28, 2021 at 4:03
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    $\begingroup$ I do not think that the point at the center has a well-defined angular velocity. Imagine the 'disc' consists only of that point. Then we could not even tell whether it rotates or not. It is probably just a matter of convenience to define the angular velocity of that point being the same as of any other point. It is a rigid body after all. So that is the most sensible convention. $\endgroup$
    – Kurt G.
    Commented Dec 28, 2021 at 16:07
  • $\begingroup$ @KurtG. That's what I was thinking. However, I can't seem to find a source stating this explicitly. $\endgroup$
    – Logicus
    Commented Dec 30, 2021 at 22:29
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Mathematically, you are right that the angular velocity of the zero-dimensional centre point is not defined. This is expressed in the formula you provide, where you approach a zero denominator.

Physically though, to all practical purposes, the centre point can be considered as rotating - you can imagine zooming in down to the centre atom and still define such rotation. From a physical perspective you can argue that every point rotates at the same angular velocity, not just based on the given formula, but simply from the perspective of the object being idealised as perfectly rigid. For a rigid physical object, the angular velocity of any point is equal in order to maintain the material bonds from the definition of rigid.

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  • $\begingroup$ Thank you for the reply. I still feel that this kind of answer is unsatisfying, since the question concerns points, which are defined as zero-dimensional and not just very tiny pockets of space. Therefore, if we are talking about an actual zero-dimensional point, I don't see how the angular velocity could be defined. That point is not rotating with respect to itself, no? I don't see how it could be meaningful to speak of the rotation of a zero-dimensional object with respect to itself. $\endgroup$
    – Logicus
    Commented Nov 15, 2023 at 22:36
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The relationship between tangential velocity and angular velocity can also be expressed like this:

$$v = \omega R$$

Start with an initial angular velocity $\omega_0$. As the radius approaches zero, the tamgential velocity approaches zero but $\omega$ remains constant. As a result, the dimensionless point retains its angular velocity $\omega_0$ but has no tangential velocity.

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  • $\begingroup$ I don't understand how this explains the angular velocity of the point that's located at R = 0 though. I understand the logic for all points except the one that's literally located at the very center (and not an infinitesimal distance away). $\endgroup$
    – Logicus
    Commented May 7 at 22:51
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Take the equation $v = \omega r$. If $r = 0$, then $v = 0$. Rearranging we get $$\omega = \frac{0}{0},$$

which is indeterminate. That does not mean that $\omega$ is zero at the centre when r =0 and neither does it mean that it is something impossible like infinite. Indeterminate just means the maths cannot give us a definite answer without additional information. All we can do is is make the most reasonable assumption that $\omega$ at the centre is the same as it is everywhere else on the disk.

However, let's step back a minute and consider that we are now talking about the angular velocity of a point with zero radius. Is that reasonable? It cannot possibly be an extended particle like an atom. We are essentially asking about the angular velocity of nothing, which is a pointless question. On the other hand, we talk about the properties of an electron which is commonly said to be a dimensionless point particle, but when we look deeper, there are good arguments that an electron is not really a point particle. See this article.

Now consider this. We agree any point on the disk that is not exactly at the centre of the disk has the same non-zero angular velocity $\omega$. So where exactly, is the exact centre of the disk? Well the Heisenberg uncertainty principle tells us we can not be exactly certain of its location. If we use our best estimate or calculation of where the exact centre of the disk is and assume there is some physical but dimensionless point particle at that location that has properties like mass, then the uncertainty principle tells us the point particle is not exactly at that location, but is in a superposition of locations about that point. Statistics tells us the probability of the 'particle' being exactly at the centre is practically zero. This hypothetical, but probably none existent point particle, cannot be exactly at the centre of the disk and so it is at a non zero distance from the centre and shares the same angular velocity as the rest of the disk.

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Angular velocity is defined as the angle covered per unit time, or to be more precise the angular displacement per unit time, in a rotating disk all the points on the disc complete one rotation in the same time. This implies that they cover 360 degree or 2pi radians in the same time, hence according to the core definition of angular velocity, their angular velocities must be equal

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Angular rotation is an emergent property of the collection of particles that move together and not a property of any individual particle.

Angular rotation is shared for the entire body describing the rotational motion of all the particles that are fixed to it.

This is used to describe the velocity of each particle as

$$ \vec{v}_i = \vec{\omega} \times \vec{r}_i \tag{1}$$

where $\vec{r}_i$ is the position of each particle with respect to the center of rotation.

See, you have to combine the rotational velocity $\vec{\omega}$ with the concept of axis of rotation, and hence the position $\vec{r}_i$ relative to this axis, to get the motion of each particle.

Full disclosure, the full motion of each particle can always be decomposed as a rotation $\vec{\omega}$ in combination with a parallel velocity $\vec{v}_{\parallel}$ such that $$\vec{v}_i = \vec{\omega} \times \vec{r}_i + \vec{v}_{\parallel} \tag{2} $$
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  • $\begingroup$ But wouldn't the position vector of the center point with respect to an axis running through that very center point just be the 0 vector, making the cross product equal to the zero vector? Also, I don't understand the relevance of emergence here. Isn't it true that the angular velocity of any particle that composes the disk would be the same whether the particle is isolated or part of the disk? $\endgroup$
    – Logicus
    Commented May 7 at 22:49
  • $\begingroup$ It is true for (1) above that at the center of rotation $\vec{r}_i$ is zero, and thus $\vec{v}_i$ is zero (all particles on the axis of rotation are fixed). But it is allowed to have some parallel motion to the axis of rotation which is why there is equation (2). Since the cross products filters out any parallel components $\vec{v}_i$ would only have 2 independent components instead of 3 if only (1) was sufficient. $\endgroup$ Commented May 8 at 2:40
  • $\begingroup$ Sorry if I'm missing something, but I'm not seeing how this addresses the original question - shouldn't omega I (the angular velocity at the very center of the disk) still be equal to 0? $\endgroup$
    – Logicus
    Commented May 8 at 21:48
  • $\begingroup$ @Logicus - the point is the $\omega$ described all the particles and is not something to ascribe to any individual particle on the body. You are thinking of velocity which equates to movement and indeed the center does not move. But the body is still rotating, and any body that rotates is going to have one unique axis of which is going to rotate about and hence the particles that coincide with this axis will not move (unless they translate parallel to the axis). $\endgroup$ Commented May 11 at 0:23
  • $\begingroup$ John - that all makes sense, but wouldn't it make sense to add to what you said that the center point simply doesn't have a well-defined angular velocity (as Kurt G. suggested in a comment above)? If the center point isn't moving, I don't see how it's physically meaningful to ascribe an angular velocity to it. It feels like we're overfitting a mathematical theory to a situation where it doesn't make physical sense. $\endgroup$
    – Logicus
    Commented May 23 at 4:19

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