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Some 6 months ago I was given the privilege to cast delete votes on posts.
I very rarely use my votes because in most cases I'm really not sure if a post deserves to be deleted, and I find it difficult to find information that clears this up.

This morning we had somewhat of a discussion in the SOCVR chat room regarding off-topic or otherwise 'bad' questions that was triggered by a request to delete this off-topic question.
Picture for <10k users

While there may be no doubt that it is off-topic, I was hesitant to vote to delete it because it has ~75k views, a score of +32 and some answers that at the very least contain some useful bits of information for future visitors. It didn't matter though, because it was quickly deleted by others who all agreed that it's off-topic and off-topic questions should be deleted.

I figured the opinion of the 'crowd' outweighs my own and went to look for other such posts that, by this consensus, deserve to be deleted. Not necessarily to take action, more to see what's out there.

I found questions like

If we were to be consistent, it would make sense to undelete the Swift IDE question, because it's barely different from the ones listed above.

I found most of these questions are locked instead of deleted (results are biased in favor of my case because I cannot search for deleted posts).
But why? When is a question significant enough to keep it around instead of getting rid of it?

I checked the access moderator tools FAQ, trying to find clarification, which says:

When should I delete questions?

Closed questions that are of no lasting value whatsoever should be flagged and deleted.

Which is really vague. When does a question have lasting value?

I have here an answer by Servy:

It is based on community consensus. There is no general case rule; they are discussed on a case by case basis to determine if the community feels that the post is adding sufficient value to warrant keeping it around or not.

so I figured "yeah maybe that makes sense. Let the mods decide it case by case". However then I came across this answer by GraceNote♦:

Ideally, off-topic closures (as well as most non-dupe closures) should get deleted. The reason they're not immediately deleted is because sometimes they can be fixed to no longer be off-topic. Closing's purpose includes given the author, or other users, the opportunity to fix an unacceptable question and consequently get it reopened. That's why they stick around. How long they stick around is dependent on who is running around performing the necessary deletions.

to which Shog9♦ the BossMod replied:

This. Closing is supposed to be your wake-up call, your last chance to take your question seriously. Deletion will follow...

It confuses me.

Who is "running around performing necessary deletions"? Mods, but also us.. the community. I am part of this community but I cannot perform necessary deletions if I don't know when deletion is necessary.


This post is by no means intended to offend anyone in any way. I only seek clarification. I understand this may be a complex issue and maybe there isn't one rule to delete them all (or not), but thoughts and ideas are welcome.

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    While off-topic, some percentage of that 75K probably wanted to know if you didn't need a Mac to use Swift. Swift did become open source (in December 2015), and is now also available on Linux.
    – user4151918
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 11:48
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    Swift is available on linux, but you cannot develop iOS apps on linux. Anyway, it's not so much about that 1 specific question, but more a general approach on how/if to use delete votes
    – Tim
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 11:53
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    I did notice that in the original question, but we can't assume everyone else also wanted to develop iOS apps. There will always be a difference of opinion as to whether that or other questions have lasting value. Just saying I think that question has broader value, and every 10K gets one vote to (un)delete a question. If it's repeatedly (un)deleted, the mods will step in. While I'm thankful that (Roomba or) users do clean stuff up, I don't really see why it hurts the site to leave that question alone.
    – user4151918
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 12:08
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    It is worth noting that the question was closed as being off-topic on the same day it was asked, which is quite different from questions that were asked before the close reasons were changed. The fact that it has 75k views and not very many upvotes might be an indication that the question isn't actually that useful.
    – cimmanon
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 15:26
  • Did that deleted Swift on Windows question happen to mention silver? Can't decide whether this new account is trolling or spamming although the eye patch is a nice touch.
    – user4151918
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 23:15
  • @PetahChristian I don't see how that is relevant
    – Tim
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 23:17
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    @TimCastelijns Bad question deleted. Related bad question appears the next day. A question was deleted, you are asking whether or not questions should be deleted, and that unlikely coincidence happens? A more significant deletion may have lead to a less significant question being (re)asked. Deleting is faster in the short term compared to fixing/locking a question, but you have to wonder whether it starts the whole process over again, ad nauseam. Isn't that a relevant issue for discussion?
    – user4151918
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 23:48
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    The linked question could fit very well in SoftwareRecommendations.StackExchange (if formulated so that they are ontopic there, I'm kind of active there and can actually judge the situation a bit). So in my opinion StackOverflow did discourage these questions but another part of StackExchange dedicated itself to them (if formulated so that...). Therefore, everything is fine, these question can be deleted here safely. Their value is small anyway. I hope to have better versions of them on SoftwareRec one day. That's why I will downvote and close vote now. Thanks for pointing them out. Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 13:03
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    Ups, turns out downvoting or close voting is not possible. Well then, they may live on. :) Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 13:04
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    I kind of want to flag that first question for moderator attention... :) For example, for comparison charts, there is zillion in Wikipedia, that kind of information here is both subjective and prone to be out of date, so I so want to delete them...
    – Smar
    Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 13:11
  • @Trilarion worry not, they are all already closed =)
    – Tim
    Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 13:28
  • The way I see it, we're trying to discourage the asking of off-topic questions by showing that if you post one, even if it means hiding valuable knowledge, it will be deleted. (that may sound a tiny bit like a rant, but you get the idea)
    – Jojodmo
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 5:21
  • @Jojodmo I don't quite follow what you are saying. Also, it is pretty hard to close and delete things around here. If it weren't for roomba, things would be a lot worse.
    – Drew
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 5:25
  • How about migrating them to softwarerecs.stackexchange.com ? (Only the good ones that are sufficiently specific that they do not have dozens of possible answers) Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 5:27

3 Answers 3

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Personally, I think the rule is quite simple:

Always vote to delete closed questions unless their existence is making the Internet a better place.

The only tricky thing about that rule is defining what it means to "make the Internet a better place." Well, obviously anything that is spam, noise, or otherwise worthless is making the Internet a worse place, so these cannot be an exception to the deletion rule. The community consensus is strong here; everyone knows crap when they see it.

The tricky part is what should save a question from deletion (which, as Grace Note and Shog9 have pointed out, is a closed question's destiny). I choose to save questions whose answers contain useful information that cannot trivially be found elsewhere and might be useful to others in the future.

I do not see any merit in rushing to delete borderline cases.

                          

Bonus chatter: there was a big hullaballoo several years ago on the Meta site, effectively dividing the community into two groups: the "deletionists" and "preservationists." Like all labels, these were not entirely apt, but they captured the essence of the positions in the debate. One group felt that questions that were once acceptable, but now fell afoul of our new guidelines, should be deleted because their presence was hurting the site—they were effectively serving as "broken windows," suggesting to new users that these types of questions were on-topic and acceptable when they really weren't. The second group wasn't quite sure that they agreed with that logic, but even to the extent that they did, they screamed about the need to exercise caution over the risk of deleting potentially useful and interesting content, arguing that those old, historical questions made meaningful contributions to the body of knowledge on the Internet, making it a better place, even though our guidelines had since evolved and we were no longer willing to take a gamble on that type of question going forward. The debate finally calmed down following the introduction of the "historical lock" feature, and now it seems to have been mostly forgotten. If you're curious and weren't there (what is wrong with you?), the only link I can easily dig up is this one.

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  • save questions whose answers contain useful information that cannot trivially be found elsewhere and might be useful to others in the future interesting, also useful chart, and interesting chatter.. I did not know that. Thanks
    – Tim
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 12:17
  • I just made the chart up. It's not official or anything. :-) Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 12:18
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    Bonus block: Do I want to delete this because someone is wrong on the internet? yes: loop back to self 10 times with 5 minute intervals. No - go to "is the post hurting anything".
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 12:18
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    You know it's not official from the distinct lack of freehand circles.
    – BoltClock
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 12:19
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    @gimby We already have a feature for "someone is wrong on the Internet"—downvoting. Oh how that pisses people off! Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 12:19
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    @CodyGray bonus points for making up a chart. That means this question is now significant because an answer contains value that cannot be trivially found elsewhere. Which means my Q won't get deleted.. =)
    – Tim
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 12:20
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    @codygray exactly what the bonus block is for - to cool down the need to hit the nuke button instead :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 12:20
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    It is an ignorant position that if you don't see the benefit of something then it is useless. The site policy says explicitly: "assume good faith". Negative actions should be reserved until you have an evidence that something is harmful.
    – jfs
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 15:47
  • @J.F.Sebastian although I don't agree with Cody's conclusion, what has to do "good faith" with deletion? I mean, it was on good faith that I posted that question about programming on boats, it shouldn't be deleted!
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 15:48
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    @Braiam: notice: "unless you have an evidence" in my comment. If you have the evidence that "programming on boats" is off-topic (a link to /help/on-topic or similar would suffice here) then you can vote to close (and therefore delete) the question. By default, you should assume that people are trying to be helpful unless you have an evidence to the contrary.
    – jfs
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 15:59
  • @J.F.Sebastian what? In what way or form is a question about "programing on a boat" even on topic on first place?
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 16:39
  • @Braiam: notice: "a link to /help/on-topic or similar would suffice here" [as the evidence that it is off-topic] in my comment.
    – jfs
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 17:18
  • @J.F.Sebastian I'm trying to point out how ridiculous would be to demonstrate that a question about programming on a boat is even on topic. It doesn't need to be spelled out in the help center, common sense will tell you that such questions aren't welcomed here.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 18:33
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    I'm referring to the quote at the top (paraphrasing) "always delete unless it makes a better place" It assumes omniscience on your part that is ignorant. If we assume good faith then the principle should be: "don't delete unless you have evidence that it harms the site". Evidence is links to docs such as /help/on-topic and/or meta-discussions that show concensus about specific policy X that you want to apply. My point: [a post is] "innocent until proven guilty" [by an existing documented policy].
    – jfs
    Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 10:30
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    It was proven guilty, in clear violation of an existing documented by policy, by the virtue of the fact that it was closed by either 5 community members or a moderator. Deletion is the ultimate destiny of all closed questions. The only question here is whether we should grant the question a reprieve from the normal course of action (deletion). Commented Feb 25, 2016 at 11:04
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I'm mostly in the camp that you shouldn't fear deletion, you should fear the loss of useful content. A deleted question whose useful content is available elsewhere is good deletion. Remember, not every question under the sun should be asked here, if that means that we need to expend more effort in making the content available in a more substantial form (i.e., too broad questions broken down, opinion-based becomes fact check, off-topic becomes blog post or examples on documentation, etc.) which are more searchable and precise.

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    A deleted question whose useful content is available elsewhere is good deletion. useful statement, thanks!
    – Tim
    Commented Feb 24, 2016 at 12:22
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I personally hate it when off-topic but useful content gets deleted. Closure if for off-topic, deletion is for useless, unsalvageable stuff.

In this particular case, the user is not so much asking "to recommend or find a book, tool, software library, tutorial or other off-site resource" - the real question is: Can I create a SWIFT program on Windows? That is reasonably scoped and, if worded that way, probably on topic.

So it is not even completely and obviously off-topic. Deletion seems very abusive in this case.

I have edited the post and voted to undelete.


Also note if that question had less views and votes, it would probably have gone unnoticed. That is an inherent paradox: the more popular (and useful) an off topic question is, the likelier it is that some zealots will see it and want to delete it...

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  • In this case I agree with you on most points (woulnd't go so far as to call the deletion abusive) and also voted to undelete. But even if it did ask for recommendations, should it have been deleted while many other similar questions get "better" treatment and get locked and linger?
    – Tim
    Commented Feb 26, 2016 at 15:57

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