Timeline for Firing mods and forced relicensing: is Stack Exchange still interested in cooperating with the community?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
32 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Oct 8, 2019 at 14:18 | comment | added | user612952 | @NathanHinchey Monica clarified here: judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5193/… Quote: "I completely agree that it is rude to call people what they don't want to be called; knowingly misgendering someone is not ok (...) I pointed out that as a professional writer I, by training, write in a gender-neutral way specifically to avoid gender landmines, and sought clarification that this would continue to be ok. To my surprise, other moderators in the room said that not using (third-person singular) pronouns at all is misgendering" | |
| Oct 8, 2019 at 14:16 | comment | added | Nathan Hinchey | @HugoZink I'm missing some context here: when was referring to someone by their name considered misgendering? | |
| Oct 3, 2019 at 8:45 | comment | added | user612952 | It is downright insanity that referring to someone by their name is now considered "misgendering". | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 20:17 | comment | added | Monica Cellio | We were told: you must use people's pronouns. I asked: when using pronouns, right? E.g. if I'm talking about Adamant or the OP or this answer (link), I'm not using any pronouns and that's how many of us communicate now. I also talked (in a post I can no longer refer to, so from memory) about other ways I, as a professional writer, routinely avoid singular gender. I do this for clarity and style, because writing well is a core part of my identity and sometimes singular "they" is harder to understand. To avoid singling out people who use "they", I said it's no problem to avoid he/she too. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 20:16 | comment | added | Adamant | I admit I'm super conflicted because I like you, Cyn, and even Stack Exchange management (sorry), not to mention myself...but everyone needs to be held accountable for their behavior and how they make people feel. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 20:14 | comment | added | Adamant | @MonicaCellio - Can you be more concrete about what you were proposing, though? Basically, were you suggesting avoiding gendered pronouns to refer to users when discussing them in order to avoid using someone's preferred pronouns? Or doing so to avoid misgendering? Or for stylistic reasons? What does Cyn think you meant, and what's their point of disagreement with it? E.g. do you or Cyn think that the policy would mean that users shouldn't refer to you as they if they know your gender? What's your (plural) opinion about that? | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 20:04 | comment | added | Monica Cellio | Knowingly using wrong pronouns is abusive. I don't disagree with that at all! | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 20:04 | comment | added | Adamant | OK, thanks. I'll guess I'll see what the new code means when it comes out! If, as it seems to be, is saying that using the wrong pronouns to refer to other users (or people external to the site, even) will be explicitly considered abusive moving forward, I think it sounds pretty positive. But I could definitely imagine provisions that I would not consider so positive. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 20:03 | comment | added | Monica Cellio | @Adamant see my footnote here please. My understanding of the policy is: gender-neutral language if you don't know, and specific pronouns if you do know (with gender-neutral language being forbidden). | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 20:00 | comment | added | Cyn | You would have to ask @MonicaCellio | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 19:21 | comment | added | Adamant | Thanks. So what's the relevance of what Monica was saying about gender-neutral language? | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 19:18 | comment | added | Cyn | @Adamant SE stated the change would be for the CoC, which is for all users. Its scope and implementation are unknown (to us mods anyway) but my best guess is it's for individuals and not about using generic language when not speaking of an individual. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 19:03 | comment | added | Adamant | Or does it just apply to talking about specific individuals (or only users)? E.g., don't call other users by some pronoun other than what they want to be called by? If this is the case, what's the relevance of Monica's previous comment? | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 19:01 | comment | added | Adamant | I think that a lot of the details have leaked by now, but I'm still looking for more clarity on the proposed policy, and what Monica Cellio's objections were (and not only according to her), if that is allowed to be revealed. First, does the proposed change have to do with gender-neutral language at all? E.g. when writing about users in general on meta, or some other individual of unknown gender, would the CoC specify that a certain phrasing should be used (e.g. "they", "he or she")? If so, what? Would this apply to moderators, or just regular users? | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 17:06 | comment | added | Cyn | @Aza Perfect. I'm in PDT. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 17:03 | comment | added | user206222 | @Cyn When I get some time tonight, I'll set up a chatroom and we can coordinate. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 16:15 | comment | added | Cyn | @Aza I'm on a Mac laptop. If you can point me to setup, I'd be happy to try. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 16:12 | comment | added | Cyn | @Aza Not familiar with it. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 16:06 | comment | added | user206222 | @Cyn I am maybe not as cynical as you, but I don't mean that negatively; there hasn't been much to indicate otherwise, publicly. So it's just a question of trust. I don't intend to share private details, but I'd be willing to chat privately just because it's easier to go in depth. I only use Discord; do you? | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 15:49 | comment | added | Cyn | @Aza Yeah that sucks. I honestly don't believe SE cares about your safety or mine or anyone else's (maybe in a no physical violence sense but not online here). I don't believe they thought going after Monica as the low hanging fruit would fix things, but I do think they thought they could fool some people into thinking they cared. You're right about the broader context. If you ever want, I am willing to speak with you more privately. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 15:45 | comment | added | user206222 | @Cyn As for Monica... I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as a lot of people want it to be. I have more feelings than 600 characters can express, but... The framework in which her summary dismissal was an Abhorrent Thing is a little naïve; it might not have been the correct move, but the depth and form of the Stack's anger tells me people aren't really listening to the broader context, or don't care to (not necessarily what you're doing, here). That's not a good sign, and it has nothing to do with Monica. I have to be careful about what I express in public, so I may cap my thoughts here for now. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 15:39 | comment | added | user206222 | @Cyn I get what you mean, I think. But if anything has undermined my sense of safety, it's that I can no longer pretend my friends from Stack are as universally accepting as I'd hoped. Safety is illusory; I'm sorry this is true, but I'm not sorry to have learned it on the Stack so abruptly. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 14:47 | comment | added | Cyn | @Veljko89 The pronoun issue isn't "crap" (it's basic human dignity). Monica's termination and the firestorm over that came after the new pronoun policy was announced in moderator-only space. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 14:44 | comment | added | Cyn | Someone who supports trans people and non-binary people but who isn't on board with every pronoun choice deserves a chance to listen and learn. I honestly don't understand why Monica was made an example of when there are people out there overtly spouting anti-trans things. I am cis and am not going to pretend I know the visceral feeling of transphobia, but I will tell you I felt safe and supported as a queer woman in a mostly straight male space in the 3 stacks I was active in where Monica was a mod. And moreso when I became a mod myself. I don't feel safe anymore. Do you? | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 14:39 | comment | added | Cyn | @Aza You are absolutely right that there are a lot of people around SE who are looking at this as "political correctness" run amok, or forcing people what to say, or even that they should be allowed to use the pronouns they think suit someone best. It's frankly disgusting. I want to be very clear that my only protest is in how SE treated Monica (and how they're non-following-up). All 4 Writing mods agree strongly, and that includes Monica. No, her proposed implementation of pronoun use was not okay, and I've told her that outright, but she supports the policy and the letter I wrote. (more) | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 10:58 | comment | added | Veljko89 |
I respect your opinion, but can't agree much, SE should be leading by example, asking for Be nice shit and then act with MonicaCellio way they acted is 100% wrong (I don't know her, but people like her and that's enough to know she is a great girl and did her moderation better then the most) ... why go implement even bigger complication, pronouns crap, when community and SE are divided like never before? Can't agree on building something further when foundations are week ... they should fix everything before they move on, SE and community ain't ready for it ...
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| Oct 2, 2019 at 9:13 | comment | added | user206222 | Based on what I'm seeing around the Stack, I don't think this is praxis for most users. While some are upset about Monica, most appear to be extremely aggressive about trans issues. This issue would not be nearly as virulent if trans people were not involved, because many people would more willingly accept a basic need for respect. I am happy you differentiate personally, though. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 7:46 | comment | added | Fillet | I hope SE read this, and also the linked post on Writing.SE, that gives a clear, fair and transparent path to calming the current storm, finding what common ground there is and moving forwards appropriately. | |
| Oct 2, 2019 at 3:31 | comment | added | Monica Cellio | Just for the record, I have no problems with a policy of "when using pronouns, use the preferred ones". Sara seemed to be calling for something much stronger, which would be confusing and super-hard to assess. But I never got an answer on that. | |
| Oct 1, 2019 at 23:02 | comment | added | terdon | Thank you for this. It is a very important distinction to make. We can object to how things were done and still enthusiastically support the final objective. | |
| Oct 1, 2019 at 21:32 | history | edited | Cyn | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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| Oct 1, 2019 at 21:26 | history | answered | Cyn | CC BY-SA 4.0 |