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  • 17
    Thank you for this. It is a very important distinction to make. We can object to how things were done and still enthusiastically support the final objective.
    – terdon
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 23:02
  • 88
    Just for the record, I have no problems with a policy of "when using pronouns, use the preferred ones". Sara seemed to be calling for something much stronger, which would be confusing and super-hard to assess. But I never got an answer on that.
    – Monica Cellio
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 3:31
  • 6
    Based on what I'm seeing around the Stack, I don't think this is praxis for most users. While some are upset about Monica, most appear to be extremely aggressive about trans issues. This issue would not be nearly as virulent if trans people were not involved, because many people would more willingly accept a basic need for respect. I am happy you differentiate personally, though.
    – user206222
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 9:13
  • 5
    I respect your opinion, but can't agree much, SE should be leading by example, asking for Be nice shit and then act with MonicaCellio way they acted is 100% wrong (I don't know her, but people like her and that's enough to know she is a great girl and did her moderation better then the most) ... why go implement even bigger complication, pronouns crap, when community and SE are divided like never before? Can't agree on building something further when foundations are week ... they should fix everything before they move on, SE and community ain't ready for it ...
    – Veljko89
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 10:58
  • 9
    @Aza You are absolutely right that there are a lot of people around SE who are looking at this as "political correctness" run amok, or forcing people what to say, or even that they should be allowed to use the pronouns they think suit someone best. It's frankly disgusting. I want to be very clear that my only protest is in how SE treated Monica (and how they're non-following-up). All 4 Writing mods agree strongly, and that includes Monica. No, her proposed implementation of pronoun use was not okay, and I've told her that outright, but she supports the policy and the letter I wrote. (more)
    – Cyn
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 14:39
  • 18
    Someone who supports trans people and non-binary people but who isn't on board with every pronoun choice deserves a chance to listen and learn. I honestly don't understand why Monica was made an example of when there are people out there overtly spouting anti-trans things. I am cis and am not going to pretend I know the visceral feeling of transphobia, but I will tell you I felt safe and supported as a queer woman in a mostly straight male space in the 3 stacks I was active in where Monica was a mod. And moreso when I became a mod myself. I don't feel safe anymore. Do you?
    – Cyn
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 14:44
  • 13
    @Veljko89 The pronoun issue isn't "crap" (it's basic human dignity). Monica's termination and the firestorm over that came after the new pronoun policy was announced in moderator-only space.
    – Cyn
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 14:47
  • 7
    @Cyn I get what you mean, I think. But if anything has undermined my sense of safety, it's that I can no longer pretend my friends from Stack are as universally accepting as I'd hoped. Safety is illusory; I'm sorry this is true, but I'm not sorry to have learned it on the Stack so abruptly.
    – user206222
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 15:39
  • 8
    @Cyn As for Monica... I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as a lot of people want it to be. I have more feelings than 600 characters can express, but... The framework in which her summary dismissal was an Abhorrent Thing is a little naïve; it might not have been the correct move, but the depth and form of the Stack's anger tells me people aren't really listening to the broader context, or don't care to (not necessarily what you're doing, here). That's not a good sign, and it has nothing to do with Monica. I have to be careful about what I express in public, so I may cap my thoughts here for now.
    – user206222
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 15:45
  • 7
    @Aza Yeah that sucks. I honestly don't believe SE cares about your safety or mine or anyone else's (maybe in a no physical violence sense but not online here). I don't believe they thought going after Monica as the low hanging fruit would fix things, but I do think they thought they could fool some people into thinking they cared. You're right about the broader context. If you ever want, I am willing to speak with you more privately.
    – Cyn
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 15:49
  • 5
    @Adamant see my footnote here please. My understanding of the policy is: gender-neutral language if you don't know, and specific pronouns if you do know (with gender-neutral language being forbidden).
    – Monica Cellio
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 20:03
  • 34
    Knowingly using wrong pronouns is abusive. I don't disagree with that at all!
    – Monica Cellio
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 20:04
  • 44
    We were told: you must use people's pronouns. I asked: when using pronouns, right? E.g. if I'm talking about Adamant or the OP or this answer (link), I'm not using any pronouns and that's how many of us communicate now. I also talked (in a post I can no longer refer to, so from memory) about other ways I, as a professional writer, routinely avoid singular gender. I do this for clarity and style, because writing well is a core part of my identity and sometimes singular "they" is harder to understand. To avoid singling out people who use "they", I said it's no problem to avoid he/she too.
    – Monica Cellio
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 20:17
  • 35
    It is downright insanity that referring to someone by their name is now considered "misgendering".
    – user612952
    Commented Oct 3, 2019 at 8:45
  • 4
    @NathanHinchey Monica clarified here: judaism.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/5193/… Quote: "I completely agree that it is rude to call people what they don't want to be called; knowingly misgendering someone is not ok (...) I pointed out that as a professional writer I, by training, write in a gender-neutral way specifically to avoid gender landmines, and sought clarification that this would continue to be ok. To my surprise, other moderators in the room said that not using (third-person singular) pronouns at all is misgendering"
    – user612952
    Commented Oct 8, 2019 at 14:18