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Rev

2

Reserve downvoting for answers to that give incorrect answers. That is a cultural change which might be positive but is unenforceable by the software unless you require reasons for downvote, which is a suggestion that has been discussed and declined a good two or three hundred times so far.
– Magisch
Commented Jun 3, 2019 at 11:19
3

"I think downvoting good questions is antithetical to the purpose of the site" You're not going to get pretty much anyone to disagree with that here. The problem is you've defined "literally every question" as "a good question", rather than defining "questions that are actually useful to the community" as "good questions", the way the site itself has defined it.
– Servy
Commented Jun 3, 2019 at 21:57
4

But regardless, thanks for confirming that SE is incorrect to focus on comments, in in your eyes as a new user, and that it's actually the very idea of having quality standards, and the closing and downvoting of bad content, that you as a new user find unwelcoming.
– Servy
Commented Jun 3, 2019 at 21:59
1

On a personal note though, there are lots of sites out there on the internet that are designed around the premise that all questions (or at least all non-spam questions) are welcome, and to which there aren't quality standards for questions or answers, merely a place for anyone to say whatever they want. Of course, SE is not one of those places, and doesn't try to be one of those places, but if that's what you're looking for, instead of a highly curated place designed to produce a high standard of quality, there are plenty of other places that offer it.
– Servy
Commented Jun 3, 2019 at 22:01
1

@Servy Some questions are clearly off-topic (e.g. a programming question on MSE), but every site has a gray area of topics where the community splits on whether they should be allowed or rejected (e.g. software tools on SO, game identification on Arqade, homebrew on RPG, etc.). Rulings on those areas are often contentious and applied inconsistently, and it'd be interesting to see how much of the unwelcome effect comes from questions in those types of categories vs general downvote/closure culture. Even bystanders get sucked into contentious category wars, moreso than a downvote on a question.
– Troyen
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 0:10
1

@Servy I must thank you, as your comments on acceptable questions really illustrates exactly what I was talking about. You would prefer an exclusive, not-overly welcoming environment on SE, and I can see the benefit in that, but I believe an adjustment to the standard can be made and actually increase the usefulness of SE to all of its users. On the other hand, the polite snark with which you dismissed me ("but if that's what you're looking for...there are plenty of other places that offer it") cuts against my argument that comments aren't the main issue. :P
– Michael
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 0:28
4

@Michael This is the inherent clash here. You want to change what SE is and looks like, and a bunch of people see this as it becoming worse, while you see it as becoming better. You probably won't find much support for that here, as meta tends to be rather conservative as far as SE is concerned.
– Magisch
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 7:25
2

@Michael "There are questions there that have been closed that would, in my opinion, be useful to the community." And yet your answer makes a point of saying you don't think people should be allowed to downvote or close questions that aren't useful to the community. So that's clearly not what you've said thus far. If there's a particular category of questions that you feel is generally useful to the community, despite meeting a close criteria, then explain why you think those types of questions are useful and shouldn't be closed.
– Servy
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 14:54
2

@Michael The closure criteria are the result of lots of discussions over an extended period of time to determine what is and isn't useful. You should familiarize yourself with those discussions, see why the current closure criteria exist, and if you have compelling evidence for why different criteria would be better, provide it. But just saying, "people shouldn't be closing questions because someone might find it useful," isn't going to be compelling argument for many.
– Servy
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 14:55
2

@Michael Just dismissing anyone that disagrees with you as being snarky and insulting, purely because they don't agree with completely destroying all of the core values with the site, is not appropriate. It's not snark to tell you that there are lots of sites out there that work in exactly the way you want this site to work. It's not snark, or unwelcoming, to tell you that SE was founded on the premise of being different from those sites. You're more than welcome to participate in the site, but you're expected to meet the site's standards while doing so.
– Servy
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 14:58
2

Using question, "legitimacy" is a common defense against curation. To be blunt, how badly (or even if) you need to solve the problem isn't something we weigh when curating. It's an often heard refrain to guilt curators into bypassing their question. And it doesn't work. If you want help on SE, then meet the quality standards. If you can't, or won't, do that, well, then I'm sorry, but your question doesn't belong here.
– fbueckert
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 15:47
3

Additionally, one of the primary reasons to close questions to to allow the asker to edit it into shape. At which point, it can be reopened. Unless it's egregious spam or rude, it usually has until the roomba comes and grabs it before it gets deleted.
– fbueckert
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 15:51
2

Your standards are looser than ours. There's nothing wrong with that, but you're going to get a whole lot of pushback about trying to get curators to loosen up. If you've done any amount of curation for any length of time, you learn quick that people don't appreciate you for going easy on them. So most people now vote quick, vote often, and have no issue with new users needing to put more effort into their posts in order to allow them.
– fbueckert
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 16:18
6

Thank you for your answer. I appreciate the open-mindedness of it and the honest perspective from a new users. I very much appreciate your demonstration of understanding of the prevailing perspective. There's things to chew on here. I'll be interested if your perspective changes, over time and as you see more and more (very similar) questions to see if it stays the same, converges towards the existing consensus, or something else. And welcome to EL&U! That's my primary site.
– Dan Bron
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 16:39
5

@Servy, Michael, I've deleted some comments that were starting to get heated and were going in circles. I don't think either of you is going to convince the other, and both of you can make your cases in answers.
– Monica Cellio
Commented Jun 4, 2019 at 20:24

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