Timeline for Turbocharging the Roomba: solutions for premature deletion
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
79 events
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| Jan 18, 2021 at 12:13 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
replaced http://data.stackexchange.com/ with https://data.stackexchange.com/
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| Mar 20, 2017 at 10:31 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
replaced http://meta.stackexchange.com/ with https://meta.stackexchange.com/
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| May 12, 2015 at 16:30 | comment | added | Double AA | Can self accepts not count? | |
| Apr 24, 2014 at 13:45 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
Migration of MSO links to MSE links
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| Dec 14, 2013 at 15:02 | history | edited | Arjan | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Added reference to later Jun 2013 changes.
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| Jul 9, 2013 at 16:37 | vote | accept | Shog9 | ||
| Jun 26, 2013 at 5:23 | history | edited | Shog9 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
this ran for the first time on real Q&A sites about an hour ago
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| May 18, 2013 at 0:22 | history | bounty ended | gnat | ||
| May 11, 2013 at 23:38 | comment | added | Shog9 | Well, there was some concern about making the period exactly a week that... I can kinda see... at least on smaller sites. 9 just makes it easier to remember @Sha | |
| May 11, 2013 at 21:12 | comment | added | Shadow Wizard | You changed to 9 days just because of your nick? | |
| May 11, 2013 at 21:02 | history | edited | Shog9 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Revolution Number 9
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| May 9, 2013 at 20:53 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: Thanks, that's what I needed to know. And I assume there is no "your question was deleted" notification... I'll write up a feature request. | |
| May 9, 2013 at 20:36 | comment | added | Shog9 | @T.J.Crowder: canned comments on answers notify authors, even if their questions are deleted. There are no canned comments for questions... yet. Comments from moderators posted shortly before a post is deleted will notify the author, even if their questions are deleted. No other comments can be relied on to produce an inbox notification once the post is deleted. There's no "deleted" inbox notification. My comment about "days later" was simply that a closed question becomes much more likely to be deleted after a few days. | |
| May 9, 2013 at 16:36 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: Sure, no worries. To help with that, a couple of quick questions: 1. I've read through the linked feature request. Is it in fact the case that only the canned comments notify the OP on deleted questions? So if I leave a comment before voting to close, the user doesn't see that in their inbox (currently)? 2. You said above that if someone came back "days later," they might never get inbox notifications. What are the boundaries on that? 3. Is there a "Your question was deleted" inbox notification? (It's been a long time since I was a new user...) :-) | |
| May 9, 2013 at 15:54 | comment | added | Shog9 | @T.J.Crowder: can you flesh that out and post it as a separate feature-request? This is getting long... Oh, read this first: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/133729/… | |
| May 9, 2013 at 7:24 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: Sorry, having said that, I realized I never finished my thought above about inbox notifications: If their inbox notifications still took them to the question a significant time after the question was deleted, that would come near serving the purpose I want to serve (making it easy for those who are willing to learn, to learn). Perhaps ensuring that's the case would be a mid-point? It also addresses the "rub their noses in it" point, because of course once you've seen the notification, it goes away. (Might be useful to put a note on the question telling them it's not linked elsewhere.) | |
| May 9, 2013 at 6:51 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: I understand that. I just strongly disagree with it. But I don't see much point in continuing this discussion. I am quite certain the current policy is, by my way of thinking, not just wrong but very wrong. I don't see that changing. I also get the impression that I'm not going to change your mind. So it's probably best to leave it. | |
| May 9, 2013 at 6:43 | comment | added | Adam Rackis | @Shog - it seems to me the logical solution here is to hide deleted questions by default, but allow users to show them if desired. I have to agree with TJ here, that the harm is virtually zero, and it quite likely could help some people. And I can't imagine this would take much development effort. At all. | |
| May 9, 2013 at 6:33 | comment | added | Shog9 | Read jon's answer to that question. That's pretty much what we're aiming for here. | |
| May 9, 2013 at 6:28 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: I'm not seeing any significant increase in support requirements allowing people to see their deleted questions. Who benefits? Well of course, the occasional person asking a bad question who will pay attention to why it was deleted benefits. But guess what? So do I. So do you. Do does everyone who uses SO. Why? Because people like me, who avoid voting to delete questions until we think the questioner has seen why, can freely vote to delete bad questions proactively. Look at the feedback the SE management are getting on this. | |
| May 9, 2013 at 0:09 | comment | added | Shog9 | Of course I'm cherry-picking, @T.J.Crowder: I'd much prefer to focus on the folks who're doing something good or are willing to learn to do so. You used your own example - well, it didn't take a half-dozen deleted questions for you to figure out how to get along, did it? Or even one? The cost of the feature itself is trivial - the cost of supporting it, decidedly non-trivial... And for what benefit? For whose benefit? Not yours or anyone in your position; not even mine, although I have a far higher crap to good ratio than you do. So who does this benefit really? | |
| May 9, 2013 at 0:00 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder |
@Shog9: I think you're cherry-picking. SE has devoted development resources to dramatically less useful things than the incredibly simple matter of letting a user see their own deleted posts (particularly questions). Like the phenomenal, time-wasting idiocy of policing use of the @. Seriously, if it would take more than 10 minutes of dev time ((DELETED = 0 OR USERID = ?)), you need to revisit your development procedure. I won't keep going on about it, I think I've made my point, and the SE management can listen or not, your prerogative.
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| May 8, 2013 at 22:10 | comment | added | Shog9 | They get useful feedback. Prior to deletion. We're working on improving that feedback, but we can't do anything about folks who aren't willing to listen other than get them out of our hair. Go look in the 10K tools, at recently-deleted posts @T.J.Crowder: right now, there's a pile of questions posted by someone in the span of about an hour, all of which were closed and commented on and resulted in... Another crappy duplicate. Do you really think we should devote more development resources so that he can go back now and read the feedback he ignored the first 6 times? | |
| May 8, 2013 at 22:01 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: So give them a chance to dismiss the items from the list. (Delete the deletion, if you will.) That's exactly zero justification for not giving them the useful feedback in the first place. I don't expect the questions will be restored. I expect that (some people, the people we actually want participating on SE) will learn what is and isn't useful. Example: My first post on SO, I made an a** of myself with a signature line. But I saw the feedback, and learned from it. If my answer had just been deleted with no explanation and no way to find it, would I have contributed as I have? No. | |
| May 8, 2013 at 22:00 | comment | added | Shog9 | No, it's also helpful if they remember their browser keeps a history, or ask about it here on Meta, or email us. But yeah, what's the harm in giving folks a permanent list of everything bad they've ever done? At best, it's demoralizing... at worst, it generates a huge amount of angst from folks who wouldn't have bothered otherwise. There are around 700 questions deleted every day on SO, most of them crap that stands zero chance of being restored; do you really want to do that much hand-holding every day? 'Cause I sure don't. You can't save them all, @T.J.Crowder. | |
| May 8, 2013 at 21:52 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: "The change as it stands solves the immediate problem of helping folks who do come back looking for something they've asked, wondering why it was removed" No, it doesn't, except in the edge case where they've bothered to bookmark it. I don't bookmark questions I ask, I expect to be able to navigate there. Again: What. Is. The. Harm. In. Listing. These. For. Them. ?! Why this three-years-and-running obstinance to doing such a simple and obvious thing? Why keep them in the dark? Why actively hide information from them? | |
| May 8, 2013 at 21:49 | comment | added | Shog9 | The change as it stands solves the immediate problem of helping folks who do come back looking for something they've asked, wondering why it was removed, @T.J.Crowder. It also enables us to do other things in the future (expanded comment notifications for instance), but for now it just makes things a lot easier for the folks who do care enough to go looking for their questions. | |
| May 8, 2013 at 21:33 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: I think you're making the mistake of failing to see just how frustrated and turned off people are if they post a question, then come back and it's just gone. Again, and I can't say this enough: There is no harm in making it possible for them to readily find those questions (for instance, via their profile, or via comment links in their inbox). There is very real and clear harm not doing so. And if you're not bothered about those people, why make the half-change that's been made? It makes no sense. | |
| May 8, 2013 at 21:30 | comment | added | Shog9 | @T.J.Crowder: I think you're making a mistake in thinking that the majority - or even a sizable minority - of the folks asking crap questions are willing to put any effort into learning from their mistakes. I'll go a long way to help anyone who contacts us about getting q-banned, but the truth is that most folks who repeatedly ask bad questions aren't interested in changing that. Show a bit of effort, get a lot of help - but let's not waste our limited energies on folks who will trample them. | |
| May 8, 2013 at 21:11 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: If the comment notifications don't persist, and there's no link to the question on the person's profile, then letting them see the question if they bookmarked it is pretty much useless and, frankly, half-a***ed. If the goal is to improve the quality of the questions and answers on the SE network, it's perfectly obvious that people posting substandard questions should be able to see why those questions were deemed substandard. Hiding that information from them is, to put it charitably, self-defeating. | |
| May 8, 2013 at 19:23 | comment | added | Shadow Wizard | @Shog9 will do! | |
| May 8, 2013 at 18:27 | comment | added | Shog9 | Generally-speaking, users with < 10K should only see links to deleted content when it's something they can see and would need to see for some reason. These are pretty rare; feel free to report anything you see that strikes you as odd. @ShaWizDowArd | |
| May 8, 2013 at 17:47 | comment | added | Shadow Wizard | @Shog9 fair enough, was thinking Oded meant in the questions list. Favorites and Bounties tabs are the two places I know of. By the way, users with less then 10K shouldn't see deleted post linked anywhere? If so, I'll submit bug report with details. | |
| May 8, 2013 at 16:05 | comment | added | Shog9 | @T.J.Crowder: right now, comment notifications only persist past deletion for moderator comments left prior to moderator deletion. We might tweak this to allow other sorts of notifications to persist if there's a clear use-case for it (for instance, on answers the canned review comments notify authors post-deletion). Right now, the goal is to reduce the number of deletions that happen within a short time of closure, which side-steps this and a bunch of other problems. | |
| May 8, 2013 at 16:02 | comment | added | Shog9 | @ShaWizDowArd: 10K users do see deleted questions listed in a few places (Favorites come to mind), but not in their profile's questions list (this would be considered a bug if it happened, and was considered a bug when it did happen briefly a few months ago). | |
| May 8, 2013 at 10:42 | comment | added | Shadow Wizard | @Shog9 according to this comment by Oded on a now deleted question, 10K users can see deleted questions listed on the profile. So what's the truth? (For <10K the comment says We don't list them, however, unless you are +10k) | |
| May 7, 2013 at 14:38 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: What if they come back, say, two hours after the question is deleted? Do the links in the inbox take them to the question? | |
| May 7, 2013 at 14:34 | comment | added | Shog9 | @T.J.Crowder: if they disappear for days, then there's a good chance they won't see anything when they return. | |
| May 7, 2013 at 6:06 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: Question: If a brand-new user asks a question and disappears (as frequently happens), comments are posted to it, the question is closed, and the question is deleted; then the user comes back to SO (not having kept a link to the question). Do they see those comments in their inbox, and do those inbox notifications take them to the deleted question? | |
| May 6, 2013 at 23:30 | comment | added | Shog9 | @T.J.Crowder: the goal is to provide as many paths as possible for folks to learn from their mistakes, starting well before the question is deleted. Comments, close reasons, edits and even down-votes can all provide routes to instruction for those willing to follow them. It's rare (and should be still more rare in the future) for a question to be deleted before its author has been given a chance to learn from it. The ability to view deleted questions adds yet another path, but pointing users to it should be the rare exception, not the rule. | |
| May 6, 2013 at 21:20 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: Perhaps you've never heard of the "many paths" rule of UI design. Not helping new users in the ways we can, including giving them links to their deleted questions, just begs for more bad questions for no good reason. Harm in not letting them find them? They keep repeating mistakes. Harm in letting them find them? ________________ It's not even a hard call. | |
| May 6, 2013 at 20:00 | comment | added | Shog9 | You have... No deleted questions, @Jock. | |
| May 6, 2013 at 19:59 | comment | added | Shog9 | @T.J.Crowder: not magic; there are rules for notifying folks about comments, and a fair number of support requests involving folks returning to questions they'd asked without assistance. I'm open to expanding the scenarios where folks get links to deleted questions, but only when there's a good reason for them to be returning to those questions. For instance: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/179106/… | |
| May 6, 2013 at 17:24 | comment | added | JockM | It seems like if you want people to learn and ask better questions, you should let them know if their questions were deleted so they can go back and try and improve. All the current system does is frustrate and confuse low rep people like myself (and I speak from experience) | |
| May 6, 2013 at 15:59 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @Shog9: "...no one...sees deleted posts listed in profile questions and answers lists. That's been true for 10K users...for years, no reason to change it for this." Yes, there is: >10k users are much less likely to have questions deleted than new users. New users should see why their question was deleted, with comments. That's the whole point of showing them. They're not going to magically know they need to bookmark it. They may do that, but there is a very strong reason indeed for listing deleted questions in their list of questions (only when they're looking at it). | |
| May 3, 2013 at 20:06 | comment | added | Shog9 | The primary goal was just providing the information on why it was deleted more than offering a path to undeletion - we'll see if this becomes an issue for support, but I tend to doubt that it will (very few people do this even when they have the ability to do so). | |
| May 3, 2013 at 19:52 | comment | added | Shadow Wizard | @Shog9 but isn't improving your deleted question then flagging for undelete one of the goals here? | |
| May 3, 2013 at 15:08 | comment | added | Shog9 | @Sha: you can if you have edit rights on the site. Editing deleted questions is a little bit dodgy, since they don't get bumped - but since this is primarily for informational purposes, I don't think this restriction is a problem. | |
| May 2, 2013 at 12:40 | comment | added | Shadow Wizard | @Shog9 just noticed that while I can see my deleted question just fine with less than 10K rep, I can't edit it. Is this on purpose? If so, worth mentioning this in this post. | |
| May 1, 2013 at 20:06 | comment | added | Josh Darnell | Fair enough, no sense in fixing a nonexistent problem. Thanks for checking! | |
| May 1, 2013 at 18:51 | comment | added | Shog9 | This is not a particularly common scenario, @jadarnel27. If it becomes a problem, we can probably add an exception fairly easily though. | |
| May 1, 2013 at 18:15 | comment | added | Josh Darnell | Oh, right. That is what I meant. I don't think that's desirable. If the user has accepted their own answer (zero-score), and the question is downvoted, I don't think the justifications for exclusion apply (the question has been closed out / abandoned, and is very unlikely to be improved upon ). | |
| May 1, 2013 at 17:54 | comment | added | Shog9 | Only from automatic deletion, @jadarnel27. | |
| May 1, 2013 at 17:52 | comment | added | Josh Darnell | Will a zero-score self-accept exclude a post from deletion? I'm not sure that's desirable (user posts a terrible question, it is closed and downvoted, user posts an equally unhelpful answer like, "never mind, I fixed it on my own", and accepts that answer, excluding the post from automatic deletion). | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 16:33 | comment | added | Rachel | @Shog9 Probably the first one which explains why the question is bad, and possibly the 3rd one pointing out another major flaw in the post. Then 2nd also contained a hint towards the OP's answer too. And showing the OP the close reason would have been useful too. I saw the question had 2 delete votes yesterday, and the user's last seen time was the same time the question got posted. User has only existed for two days, but he/she has been "last seen" 21 min ago. That's just an example though. I've come across many other rapid community deletions that occur shortly after closing. | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 16:27 | comment | added | Shog9 | @Rachel: Which comments there do you think should've notified the author? FWIW, he likely did see the first one... | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 16:19 | comment | added | Rachel | @Shog9 The restriction in only being able to delete after the post has been closed for 2 days only applies to posts with a score of >= -2 though. For example, this question came up in chat yesterday which resulted in it getting swiftly deleted. Many times the community is quick to delete highly downvoted questions, even if the OP hasn't had a chance to login and view the comments explaining why the post is bad and what needs to be done to fix it. This doesn't teach the OP anything | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 16:12 | comment | added | Shog9 | @Rachel: notification rules are unchanged at present. This does make moderator pre-deletion comments on questions more useful, since until now folks with < 10K could only read the first 90-100 characters of the comment in their inbox. Folks who aren't moderators are restricted in their ability to quickly delete questions, with the intent of providing authors a chance to be notified and informed of the discussion prior to deletion. | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 16:09 | comment | added | Shog9 | @hims056: no one (except for mods and devs) sees deleted posts listed in profile questions and answers lists. That's been true for 10K users (who can see all deleted content) for years, no reason to change it for this. | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 16:08 | comment | added | Shog9 | @msh210: None of this applies to Area51, which isn't really a Q&A site (it's based on a very old version of the SE codebase, but there are * significant* changes to how it works). Most of it should apply to Area 51 Discussions though. | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 16:06 | comment | added | msh210 | "The following changes are live now: Deleted questions will be visible to their authors". You sure about that? (I'm not seeing area51.stackexchange.com/proposals/39538 for example.) | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 12:00 | comment | added | Rachel | If someone comments on a post and it gets deleted before the author sees the comment, will they still get notified of the comment and have the link to the post in their inbox to view the comments? I have seen posts get closed, commented upon as to why it was closed, and community-deleted all before the OP has had a chance to see what's happened to their post (their "last seen" time in their profile was before the comments/closure). | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 5:13 | comment | added | Antony | @hims056 If that is the case, this feature request would be status-completed. Jeff must be very disappointed to see this happen as he is still alive. (He actually edited his comment to remove the part that could lead to a potential assassination, maybe things have changed?) | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 5:10 | comment | added | Himanshu | If author can see own deleted questions, why don't we show it in his profile? (i.e. in to questions tab) | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 4:28 | comment | added | H2CO3 | @BoltClock'saUnicorn I know, fortunately... :) I'm just a bit scared that the number of unwanted posts will rise, but if you don't think that's the case, then I accept that too. | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 4:23 | review | Suggested edits | |||
| Apr 24, 2013 at 4:37 | |||||
| Apr 24, 2013 at 3:42 | history | edited | animusonStaffMod | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Made less "let's see how many words we can use for a simple phrase"
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| Apr 24, 2013 at 1:35 | comment | added | BoltClock's a Unicorn | @H2CO3: Good news: you're not the only one with high quality standards around here. (Reinforcing Matt's point in his comment.) | |
| Apr 24, 2013 at 0:16 | history | edited | Shog9 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Since these criteria don't quite match any of the examples I gave in the question, here's a new query.
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| Apr 23, 2013 at 23:22 | comment | added | Shog9 | @ShaWizDowArd: if that was true, I don't think H2CO3 would be complaining so loudly. The idea here is to restrict speedy deletion on posts that might have some redeeming value, even if it's not enough to ultimately salvage the post. Posts that were asked in good faith, even if they're off-topic or duplicates or whatever, those can remain long enough for the asker to maybe learn something from the experience, but if a post gets heavily down-voted and then deleted, so be it. | |
| Apr 23, 2013 at 21:38 | comment | added | H2CO3 | @Matt Not enough. The site is already much more cluttered with noise like these "questions" than it would be acceptable... and now developers are pulling moderation tools out of the hands of users? | |
| Apr 23, 2013 at 21:37 | comment | added | Matt | @H2CO3: It's those sorts of questions that should have -2 or worse, which makes them candidates for deletion under this new scheme. | |
| Apr 23, 2013 at 21:34 | comment | added | H2CO3 | The second point is downright brainless. Bad stupid questions with no effort put in them/which make no sense/whatever, need to be destroyed. | |
| Apr 23, 2013 at 20:52 | comment | added | voretaq7 | I think we should enable pings for comments on deleted posts (if they're not already enabled). Sometimes a user beats me to leaving an appropriate comment, and it's annoying to have to type it out again just so I know they'll see it it and not be left to wonder where their question/answer went. | |
| Apr 23, 2013 at 20:50 | comment | added | Shog9 | questions work the same way, @manis | |
| Apr 23, 2013 at 20:41 | comment | added | Manishearth | Will users get inbox pings about comments on deleted questions? IIRC the system with deleted answers differentiates on the basis of the mod-status of the commenter. | |
| Apr 23, 2013 at 20:40 | history | edited | Shog9 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 11 characters in body
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| Apr 23, 2013 at 20:37 | comment | added | Shadow Wizard | Awesome, just one thing: maybe exclude the user's own vote in "Delete-voting within two days is disabled on questions scoring -2 or above"? User who want to delete will downvote anyway. | |
| Apr 23, 2013 at 20:28 | history | answered | Shog9 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |