You are not logged in. Your edit will be placed in a queue until it is peer reviewed.
We welcome edits that make the post easier to understand and more valuable for readers. Because community members review edits, please try to make the post substantially better than how you found it, for example, by fixing grammar or adding additional resources and hyperlinks.
-
1$\begingroup$ Does Gentzen's proof actually establish incompleteness, though? My understanding is that Gentzen proves (i) that $PA$ proves induction along (notations for) well-orderings of all ordertypes $<\epsilon_0$, and (ii) that $T+Ind(\epsilon_0)$ proves $Con(PA)$, where $T$ is a small subtheory of $PA$. From this, we can conclude that $PA$ does not prove $Ind(\epsilon_0)$, but to do so we need Goedel's second incompleteness theorem. That is, Gentzen proved a new instance of incompleteness, but relies on already knowing some other incompleteness. Is this correct? If so, this isn't what I was asking. $\endgroup$– Noah SchweberCommented Oct 5, 2013 at 19:57
-
$\begingroup$ I think it would depend on whether there was any non-Godelian route of establishing that successive powers of $\omega^{\omega^{...}}$ require increasing levels of quantification in PA. If so it's straightforward that you couldn't get to $\epsilon_0$ without infinitely long formulas. Unfortunately I do not know the answer to this - I'm still struggling to understand Gentzen on a truly intuitive level. (Vide my question here: mathoverflow.net/questions/138875/… ) But it 'feels' like such a proof ought to exist. $\endgroup$– Eliezer YudkowskyCommented Oct 6, 2013 at 20:14
-
$\begingroup$ I think that proof, if it exists, would be an answer to my question, but Gentzen's given argument by itself isn't. $\endgroup$– Noah SchweberCommented Oct 6, 2013 at 20:55
-
$\begingroup$ It's a long time later, but the thought has recently occurred to me that one could perhaps construct a nonstandard model of PRA+(induction for up to $N$ first-order quantifiers) where $(\omega \uparrow\uparrow N) < \epsilon_0$ is well-ordered but $\omega \uparrow\uparrow (N+1)$ is not well-ordered. In this way we could show directly that for PA to prove $\omega \uparrow\uparrow N$ well-ordered it must use $N$(+1?) quantifiers, and then it would be clear that PA can never prove $\epsilon_0$ well-ordered. I don't know how to construct the non-standard model, but in principle they must exist. $\endgroup$– Eliezer YudkowskyCommented Jun 2, 2014 at 18:51
Add a comment
|
How to Edit
- Correct minor typos or mistakes
- Clarify meaning without changing it
- Add related resources or links
- Always respect the author’s intent
- Don’t use edits to reply to the author
How to Format
-
create code fences with backticks ` or tildes ~
```
like so
``` -
add language identifier to highlight code
```python
def function(foo):
print(foo)
``` - put returns between paragraphs
- for linebreak add 2 spaces at end
- _italic_ or **bold**
- quote by placing > at start of line
- to make links (use https whenever possible)
<https://example.com>
[example](https://example.com)
<a href="https://example.com">example</a> - MathJax equations
$\sin^2 \theta$
How to Tag
A tag is a keyword or label that categorizes your question with other, similar questions. Choose one or more (up to 5) tags that will help answerers to find and interpret your question.
- complete the sentence: my question is about...
- use tags that describe things or concepts that are essential, not incidental to your question
- favor using existing popular tags
- read the descriptions that appear below the tag
If your question is primarily about a topic for which you can't find a tag:
- combine multiple words into single-words with hyphens (e.g. ag.algebraic-geometry), up to a maximum of 35 characters
- creating new tags is a privilege; if you can't yet create a tag you need, then post this question without it, then ask the community to create it for you