Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Chinese)

NO ACTION

Use of the term "mainland China" in article titles is acceptable for the purposes of WP:PRECISE, but the need for precision should be determined on a case-by-case basis rather than by a general rule. ${\displaystyle \langle }$ Forbes₇₂ | Talk ${\displaystyle \rangle }$ 22:55, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everybody, there was a request to move "2019–20 coronavirus pandemic in mainland China" to "2019–20 coronavirus pandemic in China". There was a clear consensus not to move. Because arguments there doesn't necessarily constrain to the virus page only, I want to request for comments from the community if we can apply it to all pages

Should we use "mainland China" instead of "China" in article titles, given that the article covers area under the direct jurisdiction of the People's Republic of China only and excludes the special administrative regions of Hong Kong and Macau and the disputed Taiwan.

Please, have a say! -- Akira😼CA 01:10, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A notification was placed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China at 01:17, 2 April 2020 (UTC). --MarioGom (talk) 19:27, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think "China" is generally considered shorthand for "mainland China" and "Greater China" or "the PRC" can be used when one explicitly wants to talk about either entity as a whole. Kdm852 (talk) 07:01, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• support - use mainland China in titles if the article is dealing with post 1949 topics exclusively related mainland China and not involving Hong Kong, Macau and (disputed) Taiwan. Cinema of China, Video games in China seems like good starting points, as the thread starter had mentioned.Newslack (talk) 23:31, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - use China in titles as the standard. The standard is to use the country name even if there are autonomous and/or geographically detached parts of the state with their own arrangements. e.g. articles on France use "France" not "Metropolitan France". There's no good reason to make an exception for China. Timrollpickering (Talk) 23:53, 2 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Timrollpickering: The significant difference, however, is that nobody really confuses French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Mayotte, and Réunion with Metropolitan France, and it seems to be common understanding that the word "France" refers to Metropolitan France. The same connot be said of the word "China" though, which itself is an intense contemporary political debate, and thus a disambiguation such as the politically neutral "mainland China" is needed. – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 09:38, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Timrollpickering: the analogy is invalid, as France's Outremer is an administrative and geographical exeption to France. Taiwan is under control of a rival state. A better analogy is between the DPRK and ROK, or the GFR and GDR, when talking about the cold war. Francis1867 (talk) 09:42, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per the failed pandemic article move request and WP:PRECISE (Usually, titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but should be no more precise than that.) on a case-by-case basis. Cinema of China is an excellent example because the first mainland Chinese film was until 1905 (Dingjun Mountain) and in Taiwan, was not introduced until 1901 with Toyojirō Takamatsu, when Taiwan had already been ceded to Imperial Japan. CaradhrasAiguo (leave language) 05:04, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - Use China in the titles as standard, Macao and HK are also a completely different kettle of fish from Taiwan. We should treat Macao and HK the same way we treat something like Puerto Rico or the British Virgin Islands, why have a separate standard for China? Any discussion of disputed territories must include Aksai Chin, Arunachal Pradesh, etc so the wording of the RfC is questionable to begin with, why single out Taiwan? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 14:54, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Dear @Horse Eye Jack:, to your last part: because this is not about disputed territory in general but only territories (disputed or not) related to the term "mainland China". "Taiwan" is mentioned 73 times in mainland China. "Hong Kong" is mentioned 24 times. "Macau" is mentioned 18 times. "Aksai Chin" and "Arunachal Pradesh" are mentioned 0 time. That's why I single out Taiwan. Regards. -- Akira😼CA 23:47, 4 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Would you amend to include them? I don’t think that anyone would question that they are included under the official Chinese government definition of mainland China. I think most other uses would include them too. Horse Eye Jack (talk) 00:22, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Horse Eye Jack: Arunachal Pradesh is not included in the infobox image and according to the first sentence "geographical area under the direct jurisdiction of the People's Republic of China". You can amend if you find any reliable source (probably discuss in the talk page first), but I won't touch it. -- Akira😼CA 00:41, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Arunachal Pradesh isn’t however Aksai Chin does appear to be included. Can you explain why you will touch Taiwan but not other disputed territories? Horse Eye Jack (talk) 15:23, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Horse Eye Jack: I didn't say I will touch Taiwan but not other disputed territories. Can't explain words I didn't say. but I won't touch it the pronoun "it" refers to the amendment, not territories. If I was referring to the territories I will use "them" not "it". -- Akira😼CA 23:02, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's reasonable for the RfC to specifically focus on articles that explicitly exclude HK, Macau, and Taiwan. "Mainland China" is a term that is typically used to explicitly exclude them, independent of the status of Aksai Chin, Arunachal Pradesh, Sino-Bhutanese disputed areas, the Spratly Islands, the Senkaku Islands, the Paracel Islands, or a dozen other islands / mountains / relatively unpopulated areas. Also a rather pedantic note, but the official Chinese government definition of mainland China doesn't really exist per se. If one argues that their usage of it in cross-Strait relations is official, then the PRC government's usage technically includes both HK and Macau. — MarkH₂₁^talk 21:48, 11 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - it should be available and used when appropriate per WP:TITLE, determining case-by-Case. I think one cannot categorically go either way categorically, “it depends”. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 07:01, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support – when articles on a topic have separate coverage for Hong Kong, Macau, and/or Taiwan, the use of "mainland China" would be a perfect natural disambiguation to distinguish the majority of China from the politically, culturally, and economically distinct island cultures of Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan. If not, readers may confuse a particular article as covering all of China including Hong Kong, Macau, and – for some readers – Taiwan, when the article does not. This would be especially problematic, and this natural disambiguation would serve as a good way to prevent such confusion – PhilipTerryGraham (talk · articles · reviews) 09:22, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - Hong Kong and Taiwan have media independent of the Communist Party of China, and this treatment is entirely warranted. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 10:29, 6 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Support - Taiwan, Macau and Hong Kong are very different compared to mainland China in many aspects. Be it the history, people, government, law, media and/or politics among others. This treatment of separating articles by renaming them is not only required but also due. The move would provide readers particular insight and information on the related topics in the specific region as opposed to generalized knowledge, as is the current case. Such articles could also be expanded to contain more relevant facts and material for an overall comprehensive view and understanding of various topics.---Shawnqual (talk) 23:45, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - As much as I know, Taiwan, Hong Kong (and Makau) have independent media, law, people, history (and many other independent issues); and factually there seems to be remarkable difference(s) in comparison to "mainland China". As a result, applying the mentioned name (of "mainland China)" will logically be more helpful in presenting more precise/useful info. in regards to the mentioned issue. Ali Ahwazi (talk) 20:45, 12 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose to such a massive and potentially disruptive change. Analogous situations can be found with the United States and Puerto Rico, the United Kingdom and British Overseas Territories, France and overseas collectivities. I'm not adding a strong oppose because some reliable sources frequently use "Mainland China" and some use just "China", they are usually divided on the convention. --MarioGom (talk) 22:37, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note that I'm not opposing to the use of "mainland China" for every possible case, I'm just opposing a mass change. I realize that a few other editors want to decide on a case-by-case basis even !voting support. --MarioGom (talk) 22:49, 14 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose and could be in conflict with the MOS:. WP:COMMONNAME already covers most cases, and in most situations, mainland China is referred to as simply China, unless distinction from Taiwan/SARs is paramount. --17jiangz1 (talk) 17:57, 15 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. While I see the logic behind omitting "mainland", there's still an assumption that Hong Kong and Macau (and at times Taiwan) are homogenous to the rest of China; among a few groups of editors "mainland China" has become WP:COMMONNAME. Currently over at Template:2019-20 coronavirus pandemic data a footnote was added to China to explicitly define the split, but China would probably have to have this footnote in almost every article it mentioned when the SARs and/or Taiwan are also somewhere in the article. Keeping it as "mainland China" is shorter and less of a hassle to consistently do. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 05:00, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Note that some guidelines already exist for this topic at MOS:NC-CN. Whatever the result of this RfC, this page is probably not the right place to implement it. --MarioGom (talk) 19:22, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose hard and fast rule, continue to deal with on a case-by-case basis. Use "China" when unlikely to cause confusion, but "mainland China" if it would make the statement more clear. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 19:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose since China is the formal name of the state this should be the formal name of China in titles and in lists of nations and territories. It should be a simplified naming protocol. For the same reason that we do not call the United States the Contiguous United States, it is in many ways redundant to call China, "mainland China". Note some people are calling it Mainland China, which is grossly incorrect, this is not a proper name, but rather a descriptive name and mainland in therm mainland China should not be capitalized. The more we have articles with mainland China the more confusing this makes it for the lay reader of Wikipedia. Perhaps falsely indicating that there is a state name "Mainland China" which there is not. Thus I propose that the standard name for mainland China simply be reduced to China to prevent confusion. Notes can be added to articles and lists to indicate that Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Macao are listed separately as needed. Krazytea(talk) 21:17, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose Unless a distinction between mainland China and Taiwan has to be made for an article's information to be accurate, as is true with topics such as the 2019-20 coronavirus pandemic (where there is a different health agency in each location), the distinction should not be made just for the sake of uniformity. For an article like music of China, there is no need to rename the page to music of mainland China. As per WP:COMMONNAME, those looking for music in China are generally going to be looking for music in mainland China specifically. There is a separate article on music of Taiwan, and there is no need to make it into "music of mainland China", especially since "mainland China" is not any sort of official name or designation. Article titles should include "mainland China" only when it is necessary for accuracy, and a blanket change would likely only make things more confusing. Khu'hamgaba Kitap ^talk 01:53, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support (I'm not an autoconfirmed/confirmed user.) This is a disputed matter. It should not be treated like France or other countries that has overseas territories.

Maybe you would like to check out zh:WP:PB which is similar to MOS:NC-CN. Some points are listed here:

Wikipedia should reflect a neutral reality, meaning that the government representing China should not refer to either the Beijing Government or the Taipei Government, so the term China should not be treated as any single independent political entity or government, and should not be used particularly in the territory under the jurisdiction of the People's Republic of China, or Mainland China excluding Hong Kong and Macau.

Taiwan should not be described as an independent country or part of PRC, but rather as a part of ROC.

By convention, Wikipedia will not support or oppose the following two issues:

1. The Constitution of the People's Republic of China declares Taiwan to be the territory of PRC.

2. The Constitution of the Republic of China declares its(ROC) inherent territory includes mainland China.

It is worth noting that the above matters are not fully applicable to historical items, especially the historical part before [1945, when] the sovereignty of the government of ROC has not yet included Taiwan.

I apologize for my poor translation (even with the help of Google). ——羊羊32521 (talk) 04:27, 18 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Wikipedia used to do just that prior to 2011. Back then the article on China was a hodgepodge trying to mesh some vague Greater China entity into one article. However, Wikipedians reached a consensus in September 2011 to treat the PRC as the default China when used without qualification. -- King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 04:45, 22 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Note to the closer: Please, note that some of the votes both as support and oppose advocate to continue using a case-by-case approach. --MarioGom (talk) 23:01, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. We should use the word Mainland China or China (PR), because the two chinese states have overlaping claims but separate control. The distinction is deeper than the one Between the two koreas. Therefore, unless the thing mentioned apply equaly to the Republic and People's Republic, a mention should be made of which country we are talking about. Francis1867 (talk) 09:38, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]