Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies/Archive 7

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if we're going to have deputy coordinators for May we'd better get on with it. I think we need three - would people agree? Would anyone like to stand? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 15:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

A few random thoughts to throw into the melting pot. Answers may depend on who is willing to take on the responsibility:

1. Structure. Do we want need a heirachy among the projects coordinators. i.e. would we rather have:
   • 3 or 4 coordinators, or
   • 1 coordinator and 2/3 assistant coordinators
2. Functions. What tasks need to be performed by coordinators (more correctly I think this should be "what tasks need to be performed by coordinators if no one else has gotten round to doing them")?
   • One of the areas that needs closer watching is the Portal which Dev is too overstretched to do. And regretfully Satyr and I have been rather distracted from by tasks elsewhere (Jeff is away for an unknown length of time).
   • Should coordinators each be assigned responsibility for maintaining various project areas?

I haven't reached any conclusions as regards the above but those seem to be some of the things we should discuss. WjBscribe 15:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I think following MILHIST's example, we should have one lead coordinator and three deputies. Also, under the terms of my resignation a few weeks ago, the deputies are there to give people experience in the job before my current role also comes up for reelection. So I was thinking we could elect three deputies now, then in July follow a system where there are four posts and whoever gets the most votes becomes coordinator and the three runners up become deputies. The functions as I see it are to maintain all the pages, updating the collaboration, the open tasks templates, the jumpaclass, to peer review where needed (which I admit I don't do a lot because I find it tedious), and other maintence tasks, to chivvy people when there are lots of peer reviews not being done among other things, to identify projects needs and either fulfil them or find members suitable to do so, to recruit, to participate in discussions where necessary, and be on hand to answer any questions necessary. With my rapidly decreasing time I simply cannot do all of this as much as I would really, really, like to.

Areas which I hope some fresh blood could inject some new life is the Portal, as mentioned by WJB, which really got put onto the back burner (mainly because WJB said he would automate it all and hasn't yet, so I can't do anything. :D), but also the Translation section, which has lots of people willing to translate but could do with a bit of a revamp so translations actually get done. I don't see the need to limit anyone to a particular area: we don't limit members so why limit coordinators? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 16:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

How does this look for an election page? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I like it, but I'm not so sure about the timing. Ideally, I'd like our coordinators to be elected by May so they can get a full three months in, but I'm not sure how to arrange that. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 18:08, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

<shrug> I'm not sure one week makes that much of a difference. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 18:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I suppose not. My autism just likes things to be tidy. :) But you're right, six days doesn't mean much, in the general scheme of things. Thoough possibly not May 6, the day the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft was attacked by Nazi Youth? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 18:55, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

I think we need to advertise a bit. Can you send out a notice about how we're going to hold elections and could anyone interested please stand (and maybe tack on a small notice about helping out on our LGBT people list)? Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 22:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Today is May 1st.... Raystorm 17:47, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, now you know why I wanted to get this over with before I had to leave. SatyrTN has decided to break until the 8th as well. Anyway, my exams are calling, I really can't deal with this now, it's too late. Prove your worth. :) Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 19:20, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I'll take over the running of the election. I'm going to keep nominations open until May 5 to encourage more people to come forwards (which also means they won't be open for too long before Satyr in back). WjBscribe 19:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

.......What an auspicious beginning. Raystorm 19:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

OK, I do think we need to publicise this a bit more. When is the next newsletter due out? WjBscribe 19:29, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Now that you mention it, it should have come out today. Raystorm 19:32, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Right, all the more reason to have a few more days of noms. I'll make sure it gives good notice of the elections and deliver it by hand if necessary. WjBscribe 19:34, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

@_@ Surely we can get a bot to do that? Even if Satyrbot is unavailable now. Raystorm 20:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't look as if this is even started. Help appreciated to get in done quickly. WjBscribe 19:35, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

On it. Raystorm 20:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Right that's done. Thanks for your input. Thanks also to Coelacan for helping me deliver them all :-). WjBscribe 04:04, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

The gays have been staying in the Tribeca Film closet. At the Spiderman 3 premiere last night only a couple of known homos showed up: Mario Cantone and Lee Daniels. By the way, Daniels, at right, is not in a part of our project even though he is a prominent gay African-American dad. I'll be at the Drew Barrymore premiere tonight. I'm very, very tired...this has been a lot of work! --David Shankbone 19:17, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Drew Barrymore? :-D Awesome! You're the best David, thanks for your great work. Raystorm 19:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Raystorm. It's important to remember that I have done all this just based upon my Wikipedia work. If I can do it, anyone else can too. There's nothing special about me. It's worth consideration... --David Shankbone 20:45, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

The Drew Barrymore photo is live; the Eric Bana photo will be as well...so hot, he was. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DavidShankBone (talk • contribs) 04:01, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

Was Joris-Karl Huysmans gay or not then? I was told he was, back at school. Anyone know for sure?Zigzig20s 21:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I tried to get these two pages semi-protected due to repeative anonymous homophobic vandalism but the admins turned me down. I've been standing watch over these articles for too long and I hereby resign for a few weeks. Someone else needs to take up the cause. The articles are: Fudge and Jim Jones. Kids and Lusers seem to find it amusing to link up to "insert" objectionable words or statements that some friend of theirs is a "faggot". The Fudge article gets hit the most but some of the stuff that gets edited into Jim Jones is pretty nasty.LiPollis 07:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I assume this change (explained here, kind of) is by someone who thinks "gay" can only mean "jolly". Either way, I think we should keep an eye on this and other articles. garik 15:45, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

*As of last night, with my Drew Barrymore, Eric Bana, Chris Hanson, Robert Duvall and Phyllis Somerville additions, my Tribeca project is now officially ended. It was an exhausting week - around 200 portraits done.--David Shankbone 17:16, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I've been tagging and assessing articles for the new fashion project for about a month now and have noticed we share a lot of overlap, mainly in bios of designers. So, I just thought I'd drop the WP:LGBT community a note here letting you know about the project if you didn't already, and inviting any interested editors to join in (the need is great, I can say from having waded through so many of our poor-quality fashion articles) if they wish to help improve this aspect of Wikipedia. And even if you can't, a little attention and improvement to some of these articles we share could only help. Daniel Case 04:26, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Please change it to the one for May. I would do it if I could figure out all the codes...Also, where do we suggest things for June? (on the collaboration talkpage perhaps?)Zigzig20s 18:51, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. Yeah the collaboration talkpage seems the best place for now. Maybe once the new coordinator team is up and running we can have a slightly more efficient process :-) ... WjBscribe 19:08, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Ta.Zigzig20s 19:16, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Apologies if this isn't allowable; I'm new and don't really understand if this is where I'm supposed to post this question. A page I recently expanded greatly is still listed as a stub under your project, and it's far from being a stub anymore: Breakfast on Pluto. Could someone upgrade it? Thanks. Melty girl 01:56, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Done. Congrats on the good work. :-) Raystorm 03:21, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I took a crack at finding some cites for this article. Can anyone help? There has to be a FEW of his fans out there! Bearian 02:17, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

He has agreed to let me do his portrait. --David Shankbone 03:28, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

An editor has gotten into a bit of revert battle over adding information from a study to the Homosexual and Lesbian articles. The study links lesbians with increased incidences of obesity and was published by the American Journal of Public Health, so it is both academic and notable. However, the information doesn't actually seem to "fit" in either article, and editors have been quick to remove all references to this study.

When I examined this matter, I noticed neither the Lesbian nor the Gay articles had sections detailing health-related matters (if I've overlooked something, please bring it to my attention). As a result, this bit of information about an obesity correlation seems to have no home, and its inclusion in these articles indeed appears out of place.

I think that both the Gay and Lesbian articles should have "health" sections with mental and physical health subsections (or are there already separate articles I've overlooked…). Obviously these sections will become lightning rods for POV pushers, but managed carefully, they can become quite useful for information sharing and myth-busting. The B.U. study/revert war simply highlights the need for such sections. Thoughts? Rklawton 19:16, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

No. I have the same health as a heterosexual. Perhaps you're thinking of the way society impinges on how homosexuals may feel - depression, eating disorders, etc... I fear that may all become rather stigmatising.Zigzig20s 19:45, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

The question at hand, though, is does this type of information rate a section? Rklawton 19:58, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

If the information is in fact valid, the place it would belong is on the obesity article. It does not seem relevant to the lesbian page, as it is only a recent study and not relevant to lesbianism throughout history. — Emiellaiendiay 20:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, the information comes from an academic source. I should also note that the research doesn't indicate causality - just correlation. What about the maladies listed by Zigzig20s? Wouldn't these rate a section? Rklawton 22:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't think so. Depression and eating disorders occur when people don't feel valued and deserving...Homophobia and heteronormativity can lead to that, obviously. But then lots of things can lead to that too - patriarchal pressure on women (to fit into specific patterns of behaviour); grief; divorce...So again, I really don't think so. Zigzig20s 22:49, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

So, the deputy coordinator election are going on now!

Here is the voting page: Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies/Coordinator/May 2007

It's going on until 23:59 (UTC) on May 11. ··coelacan 03:14, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

2007 list of the most influencial gay person in Britain I have updated the entries of 5 top people... feel free to use the rest of the list... --Zefrog 14:54, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I and StuRat translated an article in Portuguese about this WikiProject. I left a message to Dev, but no-one answered on her talk page, nor on mine. Here is the translation. I hope it's useful. A.Z. 03:38, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! When you say, "linked from this page", you're talking about the link from Template:LGBT open tasks, right? ··coelacan 04:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes! A.Z. 05:54, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again. I've also put it at Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies/Community#Publicity, which I think is the long-term place to track these things. ··coelacan 04:37, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

My apologies A.Z., I am online for only a few minutes a day and I'm trying comment only where absolutely necessary.

Which is where this message comes in. Some time ago, I gave an interview to The Advocate, and after not hearing anything for months, suddenly got an email a few days ago that an article about us will be in the "Pride issue" in two weeks time. It has a subscribership of 165,000, so I don't think a WikiProject has ever pulled anything off like this before. Yay us!

And if anyone knows where I can buy The Advocate in London, please tell me, because I spent two hours last week trekking all over London, from Gay's the Word to Borders (where I had a very embarrassing conversation with two shop assistants who had bad English and made me bellow that I wanted a gay magazine in front of the entire paying queue, which got me some very strange looks), and got nothing. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 08:22, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I am well impressed. The Advocate has a huge readership worlwide. Funnily enough I've never tried to buy it in the UK though...BTW, is it gonna appear on their website as well?Zigzig20s 09:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

I've proposed a significant change in the format of the navigational Template:Civil union on the talk page there. I'd welcome suggestions, input, etc. from project members. I've proposed it first b/c the changes would be significant. ZueJay (talk) 19:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Thegosis keeps trying to add the LGBT tag to these pages:

• Talk:Donal Collins
• Talk:Edward English

And more. Look at his contribs for the others.

Basically, I don't know if this counts as vandalism or if it should actually be included. The pages are all about convicted child sex offenders, and whilst the sex offenders offended against the same sex...they were kids. Help? I've reverted his edits which summarise as "fagtagging" and "fudepacking" etc. But the others, I don't know if they pass as vandalism.... -- Marc 13:39, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

• Looks like it's under control. The user has been blocked, and it appears that it might be a sockpuppet of an indefinitely banned user. --AliceJMarkham 15:27, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes it has been sorted. Thanks =) Marc 20:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi, don't know if it's isolated to one user but Burntapple has been removing Category:LGBT history tag from various articles including Lonnie Frisbee, Mark Foley and possibly others who were closeted but aren't so anymore. He's been warned about edit wars and had 3RR a few times. Just wanted to give a heads up.Benjiboi 19:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• 1) Watch who you call a Vandal.

• 2) I added the Category:LGBT history tag to Mark Foley.
• 3) "possibly others" Now you're just guessing. Burntapple 20:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Roger that. I'll watch his contribs.  E. Sn0 =31337= ^Talk 20:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• Same dude who was trying to get the obesity thing linked into Homosexuality and Lesbian at the weekend. See my talk page - Alison ☺ 20:06, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

And you kept trying to prevent a legitimate study from being posted on the grounds that I cited an Australian newspaper. Burntapple 20:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Ah, nope on both counts. Details are on my talk page and User:Rklawton has taken up the challenge (see above). Linking to a newspaper is one thing, linking to a study is another - Alison ☺ 20:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

"Quotes out of Australian newspapers aren't exactly 'scientific', regardless of what they're referring to"[1] Burntapple 20:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, yes. Which is not what you were saying above. Read carefully - Alison ☺ 23:14, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

• I think the real question, Burntapple, is why are you so contentious and making so many edits that spur conflict? Has it occurred to you that many of us rarely are involved in edits that so many people consider to be contentious or problematic? --David Shankbone 23:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
  • Just for the record, I support the inclusion of information obtained from scholarly research published in peer-reviewed journals regardless of whether or not it supports my own point of view. Rklawton 01:35, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

A quick update, Burntapple, seems to have disappeared so possibly a bot watch for removing LGBT tags for someone to check on such instances might be appropriate. Not fully sure if possible or already being done but wanted to suggest it. Also the original reason I was pulled into the whole drama was with Lonnie Frisbee article which has had some proper attention and although still needs improvement is at least more accurate that he was gay.Benjiboi 19:16, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Just because you work as a pack doesn't make you right and you all know it. Burntapple 21:10, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

lol. The only reason queer-folk are in a pack is because we were all demonized similarly effectively pushing us together. A trans-person's struggle for human rights benefits everyone as much as gay men and lesbians. And even if a bisexual person chooses to live under the radar doesn't mean they want to hide who they are and I, along with many others, feel that no one should have to hide who they love for fear of their lives, their jobs and/or their children.

As far as pack mentality goes the same is true for wiki majority rules mentality, which is flawed but for the time being it's the way it is. LGBT folks are used to be written out of history, our accomplishments and contributions to society overlooked, underplayed and generally dismissed but I will quote one of my favorite chants heard at the Stonewall Inn during the 25th Anniversary of the Stonewall riot after the drag march - "We're Here, We're Queer - We Designed Everything You're Wearing." Benjiboi 05:34, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Alright, sometime ago I saw that the talk page of the Victor Salva article had an LGBT Wikiproject tag. Salva, along with being the director of such films as Jeepers Creepers, is also a convicted child molester so it seemed wrong to me to associate homosexuality with pedophilia as it seemed to have been done in this situation. The tag was originally added by User:SatyrBot, a bot used by this project to tag LGBT-related articles. I have again removed it after it was re-added by User:Jeffpw. [2] I just thought that I should bring it to the attention of this Wikiproject.--Jersey Devil 03:30, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Salva directed Rites of Passage and Powder, both of which have pretty heavy gay themes. Bracketing the same-sex child abuse stuff, I think the article on him is within the scope of the project on the movie basis alone. Fireplace 03:38, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, any of his films with significant gay themes should be tagged, but Salva himself should not based on the crimes alone. This issue was sort of covered the other day when someone was tagging a bunch of child molester articles; I think the point is that only someone who is self-identified as gay or has some notable contribution/significance to the community should be tagged. Touching little boys doesn't "count" and anyway, sex crimes are rarely about sex at all. When there is credible information that Salva has a boyfriend or wins a GLAAD award, then he can be tagged. I've had sex with women but I assure you, I shouldn't be part of the WikiProject Hetero Studies.  ;) TAnthony 16:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

There's this ("I am a gay man" -VS), which is probably real but the source (an MSN group) is kind of sketchy. Fireplace 16:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Happened to be passing by here looking at the discussion on whether The Devil Wears Prada belongs, saw this and thought I'd add that articles like this belong under the pedophilia watch project. I have so tagged the Salva talk page. Daniel Case 12:28, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Following the election, SatyrTN and Fireplace are now deputy coordinators of the project. There were supposed to have been three, but Raystorm is now too busy to take it up (though Raystorm had sufficient support), and Jet123 did not have sufficient support from project members. So, SatyrTN and Fireplace, hopefully you won't be overwhelmed. ··coelacan 11:15, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

I came across AlexNewArtBot, which scans newly created articles and tries to sort them into subjects, so I started a set of rules to find LGBT articles. The results are here; they get updated once a day. This should help identify articles that need to be tagged or categorized, as well as violations of Friends of gays should not be allowed to create articles that slipped past the newpage patrollers.

The rules it's using are at User:AlexNewArtBot/LGBT -- what other keywords should be included? —Celithemis 09:41, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

This is great, thanks. TAnthony 12:36, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

T-girl, Intersex, dyke, bulldagger, gee the list seems endless to me! Benjiboi 12:53, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Boy, that'll be superuseful. -FisherQueen (Talk) 13:00, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Too many keywords will lead to lots of false hits, right? Still if we're also using it to catch the hate sites, then "fag" would be a helpful addition. Not so much if its main purpose is to catch articles for addition to the project. -FisherQueen (Talk) 13:04, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

We could just put them in and see which ones cause false positives. It can also handle rules like "dyke but not levee or Netherlands", so we should be able to fine-tune it.

I'd definitely rather find the article with the word fag in it than let it slip through the cracks, no matter what else we're doing with the list. —Celithemis 13:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to suggest an optional hyphen in bisexual [[3]], a common misspelling. Some other terms to consider, but I'm not sure if they will improve searches by much:

• "third gender" [[4]], "gender variant" [[5]], and "third sex" [[6]] all of which people might hyphenate.
• "non-heterosexual" and "nonheterosexual" [[7]]
• "heterosexual" [[8]] - it's only stated to emphasize its distinction from non-heterosexual identities, and so is probably of interest
• "Same gender loving" and "same-gender loving" [[9]]
• "men who have sex with man" [[10]]

And great idea, Celithemis! Thank you! Queerudite 21:07, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

FYI, I've added a link to this result page to the "Articles needing attention" task box with an explanation for its use. TAnthony 21:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Similar to a comment posted above, SatyrBot routinely reviews the category tree under Category:LGBT for articles that have been placed in LGBT cats and don't yet have the project banner. I've added instructions on reviewing the list and the bot places it at WP:LGBT/NP. Please review and contribute as you have time. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 04:28, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I've been working on this, tagging articles with the Project banner and/or marking an unreferenced assertions of homosexuality or LGBT relevance. The The Devil Wears Prada (film) article was tagged as Category:LGBT-related films, and vaguely remembering the character played by Stanley Tucci, I tagged it for the project. An editor who monitors the article noted that there had been some discussion here and here, and that after reviewing this discussion) she decided just to cat it as LGBT-related (I guess the character's sexulaity was never stated explicitly in the film).

I kind of thought that an article aptly categorized as LGBT in some way should be part of the Project, or should not be categorized LGBT. I'm hoping someone can make the determination, or this article will keep coming up on the automated list. Thanks. TAnthony 00:22, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I do have several articles marked as "don't tag" for the bot. If you run across any, make a note on WP:LGBT/NP about it and I'll tell the bot. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 00:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

FYI, I've added a link to this New cat results page to the "Articles needing attention" task box with an explanation for its use. TAnthony 21:51, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I'm not personally famous. But the new issue of The Advocate has a small article about us. Pretty neat. -FisherQueen (Talk) 19:30, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, congrats Dev920, the article is finally out (June issue, with T.R. Knight on the cover). TAnthony 21:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

I would be really grateful if someone could email me a scan... Dev920. 82.34.242.138 23:17, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Cool. Congratulations to you all. LuciferMorgan 15:19, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd love to see a scan too. Perhaps someone can add it to this page for all to see?Zigzig20s 16:40, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

TAnthony has kindly sent me a scan which I've uploaded to our website. You can see it at http://wplgbt.tripod.com/Advocate.jpg . I think it looks quite good... DevAlt 18:11, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Dammit, you have to copy and paste it into your browser, you can't just click, I'm afraid. DevAlt 18:12, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

The link doesn't work.Zigzig20s 18:48, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

That would be because you have to copy and paste it, like I said. :) But I've uploaded it to photobucket as well, so check it out there: http://s129.photobucket.com/albums/p210/Dev920/?action=view&current=Advocate-WikiLGBTStudies.jpg

• Awesome! --David Shankbone 19:02, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Whee! Good work, Dev! - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 21:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

That is great! Nice bit of recognition for the group... Aleta 02:04, 22 May 2007 (UTC) (I'm back!)

Nice. I do hope more people join.Zigzig20s 05:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to request some third party views on a dispute between myself and another member of the LGBT studies project on the Toby Meltzer page. Thank you for your time. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:34, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Would someone take a look at Melanie Brown? There's a quote and reference in the last paragraph of the "Personal life" section that claims she's bisexual, but I'm not sure a) that's reliable, and b) that "qualifies" her for inclusion in our spectrum. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:51, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I took a look at the article as of about 9 PM Pacific time on Tuesday, May 21st. I see nothing wrong with it. I do not see any of the pictures that were mentioned in the talk page. I also looked at the external web site, but there were no pictures there either. --Allyn 04:11, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't say Closer is a very reliable source...In the past, Melanie was asked if she was a lesbian, and she wouldn't give a definite answer, implying that she doesn't like labels. A video of that interview can be found on youtube if I remember correctly. Anyway, the whole paragraph doesn't sound very encyclopedic to me, especially since the news doesn't come from an official source - herself.Zigzig20s 18:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

There's a spammer going round adding links to "coming-out" articles on various other wikis. Watch out for this one, they usually use an account once, then switch to another. It may happen here, so watch out! --SunStar Net ^talk 14:08, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I added the LGBT musicians from the United States and Lesbian musicians to the Brandi Carlile article, but they were removed because they were not verifiable. I don't agree with that because a source is listed in List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people, but ofcourse not everyone can be expected to check there. So, it should be mentioned in the article itself, with the proper source[11].

My question is: how?

The article currently lacks a 'Biography' section, and to add one just to mention she's a lesbian seems wrong to me. Rewriting the first sentence to "Brandi Carlile [..] is a lesbian American singer and songwriter." also seems wrong. Especially since in the source she says it's not a big deal for her, so I don't want to make it look to 'defining', if you know what I mean. nield 06:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Gave it a quick shot by placing a "Biography" header with subheaders of "Career" and "Personal life." There is definitely a lack of cites in this article, but the Medleyville Q&A article cited gives a lot of good info on her musically-formative years that could be put into a subheader of "Early career" or "Early life." Its certainly interesting to note the artists she talks about are k.d. lang, Indigo Girls and Elton John. ZueJay (talk) 07:30, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks! nield 08:07, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Bit of a bump in the road: User:Ubtrbelizeit68 indicated on my userpage that s/he feels this is not an acceptable source. Additional input on the validity, credibility, etc. of this source would be appreciated. Thanks ZueJay (talk) 01:33, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I found this, but that might not be considered a reliable source either. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

No, the fact that she's a "lesbian icon" doesn't make her a lesbian, anymore than the fact that Judy Garland is an icon to a lot of gay men made her a gay man. I'll see if I can scour up anything in NewsBank. --Yksin 16:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Update. All I found in Newsbank (a subscription news archive) were two references to her playing at Pride events in 2003 in Seattle. Which again isn't enough to say "she's a lesbian," but do provide helpful backup if otherwise verified. --Yksin 17:12, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I guess my issue is that there are hundreds of articles out there about her with no mention of her sexuality. Yet here, she keeps getting labeled (though, I suspect some if it is vandalism). I would think that the real goal of any Wikipedia article is to make it a quality one, regardless. The current article seems so generally empty but any time content is added it is usually about her personal life and not about her music. Does this make sense? I'm not trying to stir up the waters or anything...just trying to understand and see a quality article come out. I think some time should be spent writing a decent article about her music and her life as a musician.Ubtrbelizeit68 16:03, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I totally understand and agree with you, Ubtrbelizeit68. Of course, since this WikiProject is more concerned with LGBT issues, we may not be the ones to help much with a critical analysis of her music :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 16:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Some suggestions. You may have to simply document your initial findings (of reliable sources) on the talk page and revisit the issue later. Artists do come out but you have at least two issues, is there documentation of sexuality, is there indicators that this influences the artwork. In this case (without even looking at the article) my hunch is the way to go is "although seen as an icon in the lesbian community perhaps for playing at pride events and for citing out musicians such as k.d.lang, the Indigo Girls, (etc) she has not commented publicly on her sexuality." Personally, i would then go into a bit of research on the music she performs, lyrics (if a singer-songwriter) and first-hand accounts of what she does and says (or doesn't do and say). Does she sing about catching that guy but with irony? Does she talk about love but with no pronouns? If she does concerts are they with other out artists? Benjiboi 02:01, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

to using this image in our portal? It was a gift from Poland :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 20:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Gof ro it ( I am drunk. This message to k five minutrds to write.) DevAlt 21:03, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• I love it. And I'm giggling about Dev being drunk. --David Shankbone 21:04, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Awesome, love it. TAnthony 21:07, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Good logo. ROFL at Dev :-). WjBscribe 21:08, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Nice! I like ... Can we issue User:DevAlt with a cite for EUI or something? There has to be a template somewheres :) I looked through the citation templates and couldn't find one :) - Alison ☺ 21:20, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

ROTFL - both at DevAlt and the tons of users that are so quick to respond!! -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 21:43, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

• Very nice. I certainly approve. :) --AliceJMarkham 02:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I like it. And to think I almost forgot Poland. ··coelacan 13:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I need some more eyes on this article, please. I'm pretty sure the subject is editing it, and has been introducing copyvio from the lead of this interview (the lead was not written by him). There's a promising note at the bottom of that page: "This feature interview may be used free for other publications and may be creatively edited. Please contact [name] for details." I will email that person and see where we can go with it. But even if we can get the content GFDL'd, there's still conflict of interest problems. So, help, please, gently. The guy might be a helpful contributor to other articles once he's got Wikipedia figured out. ··coelacan 08:58, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I've been thinking about the intersections of categories like Category:Fictional African-Americans and Category:Superheroes and wondering if maybe it would make more sense subcategorise Category:Fictional gay men, Category:Fictional lesbians and Category:Fictional bisexuals as Category:Gay superheroes, Category:Lesbian superheroes and Category:Bisexual superheroes (and supervillains) to make a new category system, deleting the old overly inclusive Category:LGBT characters in comics. I figure it works better to show portrayal by medium than say... as there are no "Category:Black people in comics" style categories, only the more appropriate "Category:Black superheroes" and its parent category.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 20:41, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Most LGBT characters in comics are supporting characters, not superheroes. Any debate over such changes in the comics realm should include involvement from the Comics WikiProject, where you're likely to see some resistance (if the current debate/history over the category "Female Superheroes" [12] is any indication). HalJor 21:01, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Understanding that this will cause some resistance initially I thought it would be good to consult the Wikiproject. As it stands, minor say black or Asian comics characters are not listed by medium AND ethnicity, but with the two as separate. I was thinking for consistency, it might not matter if Green Lantern's gay friend Terry Berg was listed separately as gay and as a comics character. Also, I was aware of the "female" debate shortly after posting it and contributed towards the discussion :).~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 21:51, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I'd be concerned that a category like "Gay superheroes" would not have enough articles in it to warrant the creation of a category... I'm not a big fan of tiny categories. But mine is only one small voice, and inexperienced in the category-creation business. -FisherQueen (Talk) 22:02, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It definitely matters. If I want to investigate how LGBT characters are portrayed in comics -- a very plausible research topic -- I'm going to want to find Terry Berg and Maggie Sawyer. If there's no good way to find them, I'm not getting the whole story.

Also, distinguishing gay/lesbian from bisexual comic characters is going to be impossible without original research in some cases. Add that to the fact that some comics characters wander back and forth across the boundary between hero and villain, and I'm left with no idea where, for example, Destiny would be filed. —Celithemis 23:05, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Per above, if you want to split the cat up, use Category:Lesbian characters in comics, Category:Gay characters in comics, etc, since many of the characters won't be superheros. A quick look at the LGBT category shows 132 articles. Split evenly (which it won't be), that would mean ~33 articles each. Not "tiny", though not large. -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 01:25, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

My concern is that basing the idea off the category "Superheroes by race" is troublesome as there are concerns about that too [13] so I'd not use it as a precedent. There has been quite a lot of discussion on the Comics Project and the feeling seems to be that lists are prefered to categories. As I say on the otehr discussion if there are controversial or difficult to define areas (like race) then a list not a category seems the best way to go as it is easier to police as you can produce a consensus and discuss problematic additions. As there is already a pretty good list then I think this topic already has the best approach right there. Further splitting of the current cat (which can easily be policed by reference to the list) could just result in messy categories. Not that I'm saying it shouldn't be done if people think it is a good idea but the current system works well and if it ain't broke.... (Emperor 04:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC))

...then WP:CFD would be happy to break it. ;-) Subcategorize anything more than "necessary" and you'll find it all upmerged again. I expect that several of the regulars at CFD will be concerned with the ambiguity that Celithemis raises: "distinguishing gay/lesbian from bisexual comic characters is going to be impossible without original research in some cases." If you want to make the split, I suggest you decide beforehand who will go in which categories (with refs to justify each). If it can be clear cut, then it might be worth a shot. ··coelacan 13:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Also worth noting this guideline which I have mentioned on the discussion about "Superheroes by race" but applies here: Overcategorization by sexual preference: "Dedicated group-subject subcategories, such as Category:LGBT writers or Category:African American musicians, should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right. You should be able to write a substantial and encyclopedic head article (not just a list) for the category." So unless anyone can justify full articles on Lesbian superheroes and Bisexual superheroes (I doubt they'd even make comprehensive lists) the idea seems a non-starter. (Emperor 15:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC))

I've found lists to be much less accurate than categories. People interested in an article subject will read the article, but will never see what lists it's on, so you don't get as much sanity checking. For example, in LGBT comic book characters I immediately saw one piece of pure fiction; I doubt that claim would have survived long if it had been in the characters' articles.

The list also makes very dodgy judgments about who's gay and who's bisexual. For example, the only thing actually known about Destiny's sexual orientation is that she had a lifelong relationship with Mystique; it's implied that she has a grandchild but we know nothing about how that came to be. The list blithely tags her as "bisexual, prefers females". This is the kind of original research that any attempt to separate LGBT characters into subcategories or sublists is going to be prone to. —Celithemis 00:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Greetings. I think Jerry Falwell is a key player in LGBT history in the United States and his article should be tagged as such. With his recent death more research is being added to wiki but because of his homophobia his contributions to LGBT history are more along the lines of an anti-hero (much like George Bush) and less readily added. Think Hitler for Jewish history although not as obviously sinister.

Together with Pat Robertson he helped demonize gays and relentlessly used homosexuality as a fundraising tool with offensive statements in his churches fundraising letters and using his "Ministry" of radio and TV programs to say outrageous things that caused rippling setbacks throughout US culture stalling what had been progressive gains building on the black, women and student movements of the 1960s and 70s. Surveys showed more support for gay rights in the eighties than today.

When the AIDS pandemic was at its infancy he used his bully pulpit to position the emerging health crisis as God's retribution against America for giving homosexuals rights and condoning a sinful behavior. Influencing the Reagan White House and key right-wing Republicans he helped ensure that not only was AIDS labelled a gay disease but that research, treatment and education about the disease was woefully underfunded causing the sexually transmitted disease to go virtually unchecked for years causing the deaths of thousands in the US and now millions worldwide.

His legacy can be seen in the current right-wing of the Republican party which he helped nurture and bring into prominence when the culture wars were just starting to replace the cold war mentality. And his university continues to feed the current administration and ideology.

Falwell's legacy is also found in the many LGBT activists and allies who were incensed by his words and actions and started organizing and became politically active as a response. One gem was the $5000 libel suit that Falwell lost with that money becoming the seed to build Sacramento's first LGBT community center in California's state capital. Benjiboi 02:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I've grown weary of wiki conflict lately. IMHO anyone in this project who is interested in the Falwell article can and should edit it as appropriate, and discussion of this topic on the article talk page is useful, discussion on each others' talk pages, the same. But tagging these kinds of articles would seem to do little more than bring discord and animosity upon the project. I want to emphasize that I feel this way only about biographies. The benefits can outweigh the drawbacks when it's an organization or a book or whatever other noun. But biographies get so emotional (that goes double for biographies of recently deceased rich white guys). Do the work, add the relevant content to the article, etc., but this can all be done without tagging. My opinion only. ··coelacan 08:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

On review of your edits to the article, I see you're talking about Category:History of LGBT civil rights in the United States, not {{LGBTProject}} (which is what I normally think of when someone says "tagged"). My above comments make little sense now. But to be perfectly frank I do not think the man had the effect he imagined he had. For all of his work, the United States has grown or remained progressive on every one of his pet issues. The Republican party maneuvers the religious right, not the other way around; cf. David Kuo's comments upon leaving the Bush administration. Falwell handed his followers over to the party as a reliable constituency, and they have received nothing but lip-service in return. This is a perennial complaint of social conservatives in the US. The media has always been eager to play up Falwell's more strident comments, but what did he actually do? Reagan was already a social conservative: "I didn't leave the Democratic Party. The party left me." ··coelacan 16:00, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think he had an enormous impact shaping and defining the evangelicals rise to power in American politics and casting gays (and LBT by guilt of association) as the new face of evil to replace the communists - good luck if you're both! However, I feel that history will catch up to him (and others) soon enough so getting into a tired (and hyper-emotional) edit war does seem pointless use of energy so in this case I'll let it pass. I'm researching references into his impact on the AIDS pandemic which in itself will help ensure his legacy is long remembered regardless of his long-standing vilification of homosexuality. Benjiboi 19:37, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I created a map that shows the current status of anti-discrimination laws in the US after not finding such a map on WP. This map could be used in articles such as LGBT_rights_in_the_United_States. Does anyone have thoughts as to whether this map is useful? Any changes you would recommend? Or even feel free to change it yourself. The map should include Colorado in purple soon as the governor is expected to sign the bill recently passed by the state legislature. I am also considering creating a similar map for the entire world.
--Slyguy (talk) 17:45, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Where can it be seen?Zigzig20s 17:48, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

=) Have you ever written an email saying "see attachment" and forgotten the attachment? Found it in Special:Contributions/Slyguy. ··coelacan 17:55, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about that. --Slyguy (talk) 18:13, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Cool map... I might change "Statewide legislation or Official Government Policy" to "State laws" to make it clear that the map doesn't depict federal law. (All federal civil service employees are protected under Executive Order 13087.) Fireplace 18:12, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that many of the policies governing public-sector discrimination are executive orders issued by governors and not actual laws...I don't know...I'm having trouble thinking of a title that's both accurate and doesn't sound too long-winded. --Slyguy (talk) 18:16, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

What a great editing quiz! I edited title down to "Policies Banning Sexual Orientation and/or Gender Identity Employment Discrimination" Nuances can be footnoted in graphic. I would change the "No ban on discrimination in public/private sectors" to "No Protections" or similiar. Benjiboi 19:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Those are good suggestions. Thanks. --Slyguy (talk) 20:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

• Awesome map. I want to try tweaking it on my own. Does anyone know how to edit the image that the area around the map stays "empty" rather than filled with white? Is there a free image editing program that allows you to do that? Thanks! Joie de Vivre 19:59, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I used Inkscape (free) to create it, I don't know quite what you mean by the area around the map but you can edit it however you want using Inkscape. --Slyguy (talk) 20:11, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

When viewing the image page at Image:US LGBT civil rights.svg, there should be a "checkered" pattern in Moz-based browsers, which signifies transparency. It will show up as white in the thumbnail up there, the background color provided by MediaWiki. In IE, it will be background (white) on both pages. If that's not answering the question, then I don't know. ··coelacan 20:18, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, by "the area around the map" I meant the checkerboard pattern that I see in Firefox. Joie de Vivre 20:33, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Is this intended to reflect statewide policy, or just employees of the state? Because unless I've misunderstood the news lately, Ohio law still permits employment discrimination; the governor's recent decree only applies to government agencies, and isn't binding on private employers. -FisherQueen (Talk) 20:57, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The pink color is for anti-discrimination laws in the public sector only. Maybe the subheads in the legend should be bolded to make this clearer?

It does look great! Thanks for creating this, Slyguy. —Celithemis 23:10, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback and accolades.
1. The title was simplified and nuances were added in a footnote, acknowledging that federal civil service employees are protected as well as employees in "gray" states who live in counties or cities with local ordinances. Also, the sub-heads in the legend were bolded.
2. The background was changed to transparent in Inkscape (at least, I think that's what I did - I changed something called the "alpha factor" to 0 - not very sure about what I'm doing, this is the first time I've used Inkscape) -- please give feedback as to whether this style is better. I was trying to get rid of the chessboard pattern altogether -- I am using IE 7 and this pattern shows up regardless of what I try to do.
3. This map might be rendered moot this year if Congress passes the Employment Non-Discrimination Act, giving all employees in the country protection. However, since the president's advisors have stated they will advise him to veto the recently-passed hate crimes bill, he might veto ENDA also... Time will tell.
--Slyguy (talk) 00:52, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Even if ENDA occurs it's still useful for research to see the progression, I would consider dating the map "as of May 2007" Benjiboi 03:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I think if you make updated maps, you should save them under different filnames. If the Colorado change happens in July, next map could be Image:US LGBT civil rights 2007 July.svg, and so on. That way we will have the different times in easily accessible separate filenames (it's harder to work with a single filename's revision history). I would also suggest that once you have this current image in a version that you consider finished and stable, you might upload it to Commons:, where a progression of dated images would be quite welcome (presumably with a series, not all will be in use at any given time, and some people get fussy about unused images being stored on Wikipedia, but this is not an issue on Commons). ··coelacan 17:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Image renamed, and will take advice re Wikicommons. (BTW, the Colorado governor signed the bill.) I'm considering placing the image in Employment_Non-Discrimination_Act at the 3rd paragraph where state laws are currently documented, as well as the State Civil Rights section of LGBT_rights_in_the_United_States.
--Slyguy (talk) 00:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Should Category:People who have at some stage claimed they are not gay really exist? -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 13:40, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

NO. WjBscribe 14:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

ROTFL - that was quick :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 16:57, 27 May 2007 (UTC)