Talk:JavaScript: Difference between revisions

== Language families ==

Programming languages are like natural languages, so can we put a box to the side of the page like on a natural language page, that has the languages pedigree? for example,

{{Short description|Romance language}}

{{Use dmy dates|date=January 2022}}

{{Use American English|date=February 2023}}

{{Infobox language

| name = Spanish

| altname = Castilian

| image =

| nativename = {{hlist|{{lang|es|español}}|{{lang|es|castellano}}}}

| pronunciation = {{IPA-es|espaˈɲol||Es-español.oga|}}<br/>{{IPA-es|kasteˈʝano||Es-Castellano.oga}}, {{IPA-es|kasteˈʎano||Es castellano 001.ogg}}

| speakers = Native: 500 million

| date = 2023

| ref = <ref name=viva18/>

| speakers2 = Total: 600 million<ref name=viva18/>{{br}}100 million speakers with limited capacity (23 million students)<ref name=viva18/>

| speakers_label = Speakers

| familycolor = Indo-European

| fam2 = [[Italic languages|Italic]]

| fam3 = [[Latino-Faliscan languages|Latino-Faliscan]]

| fam4 = [[Latin]]

| fam5 = [[Romance languages|Romance]]

| fam6 = [[Italo-Western languages|Italo-Western]]

| fam7 = [[Western Romance languages|Western Romance]]

| fam8 = Gallo-Iberian

| fam9 = [[Iberian Romance languages|Ibero-Romance]]

| fam10 = [[West Iberian languages|West Iberian]]

| fam11 = [[Castilian languages|Castilian]]<ref name="Ethnologue">{{Harvcoltxt|Eberhard|Simons|Fennig|2020}}</ref><ref name="Glottolog">{{cite book|chapter=Castilic|chapter-url=http://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/cast1243|editor1-first=Harald|editor1-last=Hammarström|editor2-first=Robert|editor2-last=Forkel|editor3-first=Martin|editor3-last=Haspelmath|editor4-first=Sebastian|editor4-last=Bank|year=2022|title=[[Glottolog|Glottolog 4.6]]|edition=|location=Jena, Germany|publisher=Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology|ref={{sfnref|Glottolog|2022}}|access-date=19 June 2022|archive-date=28 May 2022|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20220528095200/https://glottolog.org/resource/languoid/id/cast1243|url-status=live}}</ref>

| ancestor = [[Vulgar Latin]]

| ancestor2 = [[Old Spanish]]

| ancestor3 = [[Early Modern Spanish]]

| script = [[Latin script|Latin script]] ([[Spanish alphabet]])<br />[[Spanish Braille]]

| nation = {{Collapsible list | titlestyle = font-weight:normal; background:transparent; text-align:left; | title = [[List of countries where Spanish is an official language|20

countries]]|

|[[Argentina]]

|[[Bolivia]]

|[[Chile]]

|[[Colombia]]

|[[Costa Rica]]

|[[Cuba]]

|[[Dominican Republic]]

|[[Ecuador]]

|[[El Salvador]]

|[[Equatorial Guinea]]

|[[Guatemala]]

|[[Honduras]]

|[[Mexico]]

|[[Nicaragua]]

|[[Panama]]

|[[Paraguay]]

|[[Peru]]

|[[Spain]]

|[[Uruguay]]

|[[Venezuela]]

}}

<br />{{Collapsible list |titlestyle=font-weight:normal; background:transparent; text-align:left;|title=[[List of countries where Spanish is an official language|Dependent territories]]|

|[[Puerto Rico]]

}}

<!-- This list is intended for subnational territories that do not form an integral part of a country (such as Puerto Rico), as well as integral parts of nations that are not traditionally considered Spanish-speaking. Adding Ceuta and Melilla will result in deletion as they are integral parts of Spain. This also applies to Chile and the case of Easter Island. -->

<br />{{Collapsible list |titlestyle=font-weight:normal; background:transparent; text-align:left;|title=[[List of countries where Spanish is an official language|Partially recognized country]]|

|[[Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic]]

}}

<!-- This list is intended for countries with limited recognition where Spanish is an official language. -->

<br />{{Collapsible list |titlestyle=font-weight:normal; background:transparent; text-align:left;|title=[[List of countries where Spanish is an official language|Significant minority]]|

|[[Andorra]]

|[[Belize]]

|[[Gibraltar]]

|[[United States]]

}}

<!-- This list is only intended for countries and territories where Spanish is currently spoken by a significant minority of the population (~20% or more) and is used as a major working language in government and other institutions. The Philippines, Morocco, Western Sahara, Guam, the Mariana Islands, and other former historic Spanish colonies where considerably less than 20% of the population speaks standard Spanish should not be listed here. -->

<br />{{Collapsible list |titlestyle=font-weight:normal; background:transparent; text-align:left;| title = [[List of countries where Spanish is an official language#International organizations|International<br />organizations]]|

| [[African Union]]

| [[Andean Community]]

| [[Association of Caribbean States]]

| [[Caribbean Community]]

| [[Community of Latin American and Caribbean States|CELAC]]

| [[European Union]]

| [[Latin American Integration Association|ALADI]]

| [[Latin American Parliament]]

| [[Mercosur]]

| [[Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe|OSCE]]

| [[Organization of American States]]

| [[United Nations]]

| [[Union of South American Nations]]

| [[Organization of Ibero-American States]]

}}

| agency = [[Association of Spanish Language Academies]]<br />({{lang|es|[[Real Academia Española]]}} and 22 other national Spanish language academies)

| iso1 = es

| iso2 = spa

| iso3 = spa

| lingua = 51-AAA-b

| sign = [[Signed Spanish]] (using signs of the local language)

| glotto = stan1288

| glottorefname = Spanish

| map = File:Map-Hispanophone World.svg

| mapcaption = {{legend|#045a8d|Official majority language}}

{{legend|#0674b6|Co-official or administrative language but not majority native language}}

{{legend|#9bbae1|Secondary language (more than 20% Spanish speakers) or culturally important}}

| notice = IPA

}} [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 21:26, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

:As you can see, Spanish is descended from Latin, which is descended from Proto Indo European. Could we show the same with Javascript, to show that it is descended from C++, which in turn is descended from SIMULA? [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 21:33, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

::Note: the sources cited are accidental. [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 21:35, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{tq|Programming languages are like natural languages}}. No they aren't. That being said, like many collections of things (family trees, biological taxonomies, books in a library) they can be arranged in a hierarchy. At least, some of them can. I'm supposing some of them would be better described as creoles. I'll leave it to others to discuss whether this is of value. But perhaps this would be better discussed at a higher-level, general page like [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Software]]. [[User:Largoplazo|Largoplazo]] ([[User talk:Largoplazo|talk]]) 00:58, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

:{{tq|Programming languages are like natural languages, so can we put a box to the side of the page like on a natural language page, that has the languages pedigree?}} Yes, you can; it's called {{tl|Infobox programming language}}, and it's ''already there''.

:{{tq|As you can see, Spanish is descended from Latin,}} And, as you can see from that infobox, JavaScript is descended from [[Java (programming language)|Java]],<ref name="looklikejava">{{cite book|last=Seibel|first=Peter|title=Coders at Work: Reflections on the Craft of Programming|isbn=9781430219484|quote="Eich: The immediate concern at Netscape was it must look like Java."|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=nneBa6-mWfgC&q=The+immediate+concern+at+Netscape+was+it+must+look+like+Java.&pg=PA141|access-date=December 25, 2018|date=September 16, 2009|publisher=Apress |archive-date=December 24, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20201224233514/https://books.google.com/books?id=nneBa6-mWfgC&q=The+immediate+concern+at+Netscape+was+it+must+look+like+Java.&pg=PA141|url-status=live}}</ref><ref name="origin"/> [[Scheme (programming language)|Scheme]],<ref name="origin"/> [[Self (programming language)|Self]],<ref>{{cite web|url=https://brendaneich.com/2008/04/popularity/|title = Popularity – Brendan Eich}}</ref> [[AWK]],<ref>{{cite web|title=Brendan Eich: An Introduction to JavaScript, JSConf 2010|website=[[YouTube]]|quote="Eich: "function", eight letters, I was influenced by AWK."|url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EyRscXrehw|access-date=November 25, 2019|page=22m|archive-date=August 29, 2020|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20200829024704/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EyRscXrehw|url-status=live}}</ref> and [[HyperTalk]]<ref>{{cite book |last=Eich |first=Brendan |authorlink1=Brendan Eich |chapter=Foreword |editor1-last=Goodman |editor1-first=Danny |editor1-link=Danny Goodman |year=1998 |title=JavaScript Bible |edition=3rd |publisher=[[John Wiley & Sons]] |isbn=0-7645-3188-3 |lccn=97078208 |oclc=38888873 |ol=712205M |url-access=registration |url=https://archive.org/details/javascriptbible000good}}</ref>

:{{tq|which is descended from Proto Indo European.}} Which is only ''implicitly'' mentioned in the {{tl|Infobox language}} infobox in [[Spanish language]].

:That infobox gives a taxonomy, not a history; the taxonomy has [[Indo-European languages|Indo-European]] at the top, meaning that it's the topmost category in which Spanish belongs; all languages in that category descend from the [[Proto-Indo-European language]]. The "Latin" in the [[Language family]] section of that infobox refers to a "Latin" subfamily of the [[Latino-Faliscan languages]]. That subfamily can either be thought of as being the [[Romance languages]], if you include the [[Latin]] language as a Romance language, or Latin plus the Romance languages, if you consider the Romance languages to be the ''descendants'' of Latin.

:Whilst JavaScript inherits some syntax and ideas from some other languages, it also has ideas of its own, so it's not clear from its influences to which hierarchy of families it belongs (more than just Java, and it doesn't inherit everything from Java) So the infobox has, instead, there are various language types, or [[programming paradigm]]s - a language may use more than one paradigm - predecessors ("influenced by"), and successors ("influenced")

:{{tq|Could we show the same with Javascript, to show that it is descended from C++}} Is it descended ''directly'' from C++, or it it descended from - or, rather, influenced by - [[Java (programming language)|Java]], which is, in turn, influenced by many languages, including but not limited to C++? [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 06:52, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

::JavaScript is a Lisp-like language with Java-like syntax. C++ has nothing to do with it except that it was one of the first popular object-oriented programming languages. Which goes to show that this is a bad idea: including this won't teach anybody anything and will invite endless bickering. [[User:Rp|Rp]] ([[User talk:Rp|talk]]) 08:57, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

:::Then what is this? https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Genealogical_tree_of_programming_languages.svg [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 17:56, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

::::It's a [[directed acyclic graph]] of influences of languages on other languages that appears to omit the influence of C on C++ and the influence of [[Smalltalk]] on [[Objective-C]], so perhaps it should be titled "Incomplete graph of influences of programming languages on other programming languages".

::::It also shows [[LiveScript]] as having no "ancestors" (meaning "languages that influenced it"), with [[JavaScript]] as an immediate descendant and [[ECMAScript]] as an immediate descendant of JavaScript, showing neither any syntactic influence from [[Java]] nor any semantic influence from [[Lisp]] or [[Scheme]]. [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 21:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

::::ok [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 22:20, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

:::Guys, I don't want to dispute, please, I just would like something like the thing over here→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→→

:::I think it could be useful. [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 17:59, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

::::{{tq|I don't want to dispute}} But you submitted a proposal; did you seriously think that submitting a proposal does not risk dispute? If so, you made a mistaken assumption. (Even if you thought your ''particular'' proposal was uncontroversial, you made a mistaken assumption, as you have now discovered.)

::::{{tq|I think it could be useful}} And I am unconvinced of that, for the reasons I've already given. It appears that [[User:Rp]] may also be unconvinced of that. [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 21:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

::Yeah that is what I mean. Arrange a taxonomy of programming languages, with Javascript at the bottom and its oldest ancestor at the top. And its descendants too, like Ruby. [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 17:54, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

:::That's not what a [[taxonomy]] is; a taxonomy is a hierarchical classification, meaning a sequence of categories, from most inclusive to least inclusive, such that everything in a less-inclusive category also being in the preceding more-inclusive category, with the taxonomy of a particular item being a sequence leading up to a category that includes the item. Such a taxonomy may reflect the history of the item, in that, for example, the taxonomy of the [[English language]] shows it as being an [[Indo-European language]] and thus descended from the [[Proto-Indo-European language]], and a [[Germanic language]] and thus a descendant of the [[Proto-Germanic language]], and so on. However, it doesn't reflect the huge dump of French vocabulary from the [[Norman conquest]] nor the major grammatical changes resulting from the influence of, it appears, [[Old Norse]] ({{section link|Middle English|Transition from Old English}}), which ''would'' show up in a directed acyclic graph of major influences of human languages on other human languages.

:::If you want to show the languages that influenced JavaScript and the languages it influenced, all you have to do is Not. Remove. From. The. Article. The. Infobox. That's. Already. There. [[User:Guy Harris|Guy Harris]] ([[User talk:Guy Harris|talk]]) 21:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

::::ok [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 22:18, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

'''Disagree''' with this proposal. The notion of a ''family'' is inherently flawed when it comes to JavaScript. It is a distinct language created (rather hastily in hindsight) for the specific purpose of dynamic webpages. The current "Influenced" lists in the sidebar are sufficient as-is. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 14:05, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

:ok. [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 15:22, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

::Despite my blunt statement, I appreciate this thread. It was an interesting reminder of just how different natural languages are from our very recent (in terms of millennia of human history) computer revolution with lots of different programming languages. So please don't feel too bad about the outcome of this thread. -[[User:Pmffl|Pmffl]] ([[User talk:Pmffl|talk]]) 16:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

:::ok [[Special:Contributions/38.43.22.44|38.43.22.44]] ([[User talk:38.43.22.44|talk]]) 23:08, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

{{talk reflist}}