If Jesus is arch-angel Michael then he was created? [closed]

Question

The Jehovah witness and Seventh Day Adventist denominations believe that Jesus is the arch-angel Michael. The reasons for this belief is based on the Biblical verses that Jesus will shout with the voice of the arch-angel at the end of the age, Gabriel refers to him as a prince, "except Michael your prince"(Dan 12:1), so does Isaiah(Isaiah 9:6-"Prince of Peace"). Since there is only one chief angel in heaven and there is no such thing as Jesus' angels and Michael's angels then it follows that Jesus is the arch-angel Michael , but if the later is true then any angel even the arch-angel was created and hence Jesus being created means he is not God.

This is because it's very hard to disprove the belief that Jesus and Michael are two different entities.

Michael nematology

The word Michael means One Who is like God, an attribute that can only be claimed by Jesus

Jesus as Commander of Heaven's armies

Only a leader or a commander of the angelic armies in heaven would command them to his defense.

Mathew 26:53

Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

Angels ministering to their their arch-angel who in this case is Jesus

Mathew 4:6

Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.

End Time Prophecy Regarding Lucifer

It is commonly believed by many Christians that the devil will masquerade as Jesus to deceive many into false worship and the term that's been used here is to fake as an angel of light

2 Corinthians 11:14

Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light

If it's Jesus that Satan is trying to fake his second coming then Jesus has been referred to as an angel of light How do Trinitarians respond to this?

Answer 1

Start with the easy and move to the hard.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? Heb 1:5

None of the angels, including the archangel Michael, is the answer.

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. Heb 1:6

We are to worship God alone, not the archangel(s) or angels.

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Heb 1:8

The King of kings is the Son whose throne oh God, btw, is forever.

But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? Heb 1:13

None, in case this was missed earlier.

So, now we know that Jesus, O God, is not a created angel as all angels worship God.

With this in mind, we move to the OP examples.

The Name Michael

The etymology is a question. Who is like God? Christ Jesus, not a created angel, not a created man.

Here are other examples of who is named Michael.

an Asherite, father of Sethur, one of the 12 spies of Israel

one of the Gadites who settled in the land of Bashan

another Gadite, ancestor of Abihail

a Gershonite Levite, ancestor of Asaph

one of the 5 sons of Izrahiah of the tribe of Issachar

a Benjamite of the sons of Beriah

one of the captains from Manasseh who joined David at Ziklag

We wouldn't say those men are God.

Commander

Like Michael, the word is applied, for example, to King David.

Behold, I have given him [David] for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people. Isa 55:4

In this, we also see Jesus giving the power to command to His disciples.

And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Mat 10:1

Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: Psalm 104:4

Again, we don't extrapolate the idea of a commander as to mean men are angels.

Son of God or Archangel

Trinitarians of course belief Jesus Christ is the Son of God. The exact phrase is used 48 times in the KJV and always refers to Jesus Christ and never to an angel of any kind.

Here is one example.

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Dan 3:25

As to the OP quoting Dan 12:1, notice that Michael is referred to as prince, not as King of kings (Rev 19:16, 17:14).

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: Dan 12:1

There are territorial angels (and demons). Daniel 12:1 is an example.

Also note that the Bible calls Michael one of the chief princes (not the King).

But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. Dan 10:13

Conclusion

We know from Hebrews and elsewhere that Jesus Christ is not a created archangel. All of the other references from the OP are easily explained. Start from the easy and the rest is easy too.

Answer 2

This is my trinitarian response to your question and the points you have raised:

The short answer to your main question is that if the pre-mortal Jesus (i.e., the Word or Logos) is Michael the archangel, and is coming back as Michael the archangel, then he was created.

The Bible confirms that all the angels were created and that some of the angels sinned against God. As you correctly assert, no created being, which includes angels, could be God.

Your assertion that because Jesus will “shout with the voice of the Archangel” when he returns, in glory, with all the heavenly hosts, does not prove Jesus is Michael. After all, that same passage (1 Thessalonians 4:16) goes on to say that he will also come “with the trumpet call of God.” If coming down from heaven “with the voice of the archangel” means he is Michael, then having “the trumpet call of God” must mean he is God.

Another verse worthy of consideration is Jude verse 9:

But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you’.

And who has dared to successfully rebuke the devil? According to Matthew 4:10-11 Jesus did:

Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’ Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

The fact that angels ministered to Jesus in no way suggests that they were ministering to Michael the archangel.

You say “it's very hard to disprove the belief that Jesus and Michael are two different entities. The word Michael means One Who is like God, an attribute that can only be claimed by Jesus.” I beg to differ. Here are some names and titles attributed to Jesus that no created angel holds:

Firstborn over all creation: (Colossians 1:15) – Jesus is not the first thing God created, as some incorrectly claim, because verse 16 says all things were created through and for Christ. Rather, the meaning is that Christ occupies the rank and pre-eminence of the first-born over all things, that He sustains the most exalted rank in the universe; He is pre-eminent above all others; He is at the head of all things.

Holy One: (Acts 3:14; Psalm 16:10) – Christ is holy, both in his divine and human nature, and the fountain of holiness to His people. By His death, we are made holy and pure before God.

King of kings and Lord of lords: (1 Timothy 6:15; Revelation 19:16) – Jesus has dominion over all authority on the earth, over all kings and rulers, and none can prevent Him from accomplishing His purposes. He directs them as He pleases.

Alpha and Omega: (Revelation 1:8; 22:13) – Jesus declared Himself to be the beginning and end of all things, a reference to no one but the true God. This statement of eternality could apply only to God.

Emmanuel: (Isaiah 9:6; Matthew 1:23) – Literally “God with us.” Both Isaiah and Matthew affirm that the Christ who would be born in Bethlehem would be God Himself who came to earth in the form of a man to live among His people.

Lord of All: (Acts 10:36) – Jesus is the sovereign ruler over the whole world and all things in it, of all the nations of the world, and particularly of the people of God’s choosing, Gentiles as well as Jews.

True God: (1 John 5:20) – This is a direct assertion that Jesus, being the true God, is not only divine, but is the Divine. Since the Bible teaches there is only one God, this can only be describing His nature as part of the triune God.

Since it is unbiblical to worship a created being (whether an angel or a human), then why does Hebrews 1:6 quote from Psalm 97:7 and say that all God's angels are to worship Christ Jesus, the Son of God? Furthermore Hebrews 1:5 is unambiguous in saying that the world to come will not be subjected to angels.

Finally, I would draw your attention to Colossians1:15-20. The expression “Firstborn from among the dead” in the NIV translates as “firstborn of every creature” in the KJV. Seven times in six verses Paul mentions “all creation”, “all things”, and “everything”. In other words, Christ is supreme over all – that is to say, over everything created – which includes the created archangel Michael.

The Greek word used for firstborn is ‘prototokos’. That verse speaks of Jesus being the ‘firstborn’ of the dead – the first to rise from the grave, to ascend to heaven and to have superiority over all.

There is a Greek word for ‘first created’. It is ‘protoktistos’. Why, if the pre-mortal Jesus was created by God is that word never used in connection with Christ Jesus?

Why, since the apostle John knew who Jesus REALLY was, did he not write that in the beginning was the archangel Michael, and the archangel Michael was with God, and the archangel Michael came to dwell with us and (in the Revelation of Christ Jesus) it will be the archangel Michael who returns?

Edit in response to Comments: It is true that Michael is described in three places in the Bible as contending, fighting, or standing against evil spirits and principalities.

Yes, Daniel 12:1-2 describes the end times when Michael protects his people (Israel) which is then followed by a resurrection of the dead—some to everlasting life and others to everlasting shame. The fact that Michael is a “great prince” indicates that he has authority in the spiritual realm. Daniel 10:13 says that Michael is “one of the chief princes.” It does not say he is the Son of God, the Son of Man or the King of kings under whose rule the world to come will be subjected.

Isaiah 9:6 refers to the future Messiah as ‘Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace’. I was unaware that the archangel Michael is this promised ‘Prince of Peace’. He is described as a mighty warrior angel who engages in spiritual combat. I’m afraid I am unable to make the connection between Isaiah chapter 9 and Michael the archangel.

The last mention of Michael the archangel appears in Revelation 12:7. During the tribulation, “war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.” Michael and the forces of heaven defeat the dragon (Satan), and the Devil is hurled to the earth. There, enraged, Satan “went off to wage war against . . . those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus” (Revelation 12:17).

If Jesus is Michael the archangel why doesn’t Revelation 12:17 say that the saints hold fast to their testimony about Michael? I may be a bit slow on the uptake here, but it is my view that when Christ Jesus returns, accompanied by all the heavenly hosts, Michael the archangel will be there alongside Christ Jesus.

Titus 1:4 says that Christ Jesus is our Saviour. Did Titus get it wrong? Should he have said that Michael the archangel is our Saviour? But Titus 1:4 is a direct quote from Isaiah 43:11 where the Lord God Almighty declares that “apart from me there is no saviour.”

Finally please think about these verses in Hebrews 1:1-14:

[God] has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father?’ Or again, ‘I will be his Father, and he will be my Son?’

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says ‘Let all God’s angels worship him.’

To which of the angels did God ever say, ��Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?’

This is my final word on how this trinitarian responds to your question and the points you have raised.

Answer 3

The best proof against Michael the arc angel being Jesus Christ can be found at Genesis 22. I maintain that the angel of the Lord is the preincarnate Jesus Christ, and the following facts will prove it.

Genesis 22 deals with God testing Abraham about sacrificing his son Isaac. Starting with verses 15-17. "Then the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven." (At Genesis 22:11 was the first time the angel of the Lord called from heaven.) vs16, and said, "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord because you have done this thing, and not withheld your son, your only son, vs17, indeed I will greatly bless you and I will greatly multiply your seed as he stars of the heavens, and the sand which is on the seashore; and you seed shall possess the gate of his enemies."

Please notice from vs16 the words "and said." What did the angel of the Lord say? "By Myself I have sworn, declares the Lord etc." The following is from the book of Hebrews in the NT at Hebrews 6:13-16.

"For WHEN GOD made the promise to Abraham, since He could swear by no one greater, HE SWORE BY HIMSELF, vs14, saying, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply you." Vs15, And thus, having patiently waited, he obtained the promise. Vs16, For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them/men an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute."

Now, it is true that that, "The Law of Agency deals with the status of a person (known as the agent) acting by direction of another (the principal), and thereby legally binding the principal in his connection with a third person. The information I just gave is from the Jewish Law of Agency/Shaliach found in the Jewish Encyclopedia, page 232.

However, from the Jewish Virtual Library the law of agency most if not all of the time deals with, "laws of mamonot (commercial law), or (heave offering), sacrifices, divorce, and betrothal etc. According to the Tosefta (Kid, 4:1), Bet Shammai and Bet Hillel agreed that a person appointed to carry out a specific mandate is disqualified from acting as a witness in a case involving such mandate. The agent/Shaliach is not regarded as the principal as himself since the agent is disqualified from testifying as a witness.

Swear means to state under oath. Swearing an oath is a matter of one's own conscience, therefore Angels cannot swear oaths on behalf of God Himself and Jesus Christ is not an angel but rather the "messenger of the Lord." Angels cannot multiply descendants but the angel of the Lord multiplied Hagars descendants at Genesis 16:10.

The angel of the Lord appeared in the burning bush at Exodus 3:2-6 and claimed to be God at vs6. He appeared to Joshua at Joshua 5:13-15 and said at Joshua 6:2, "And the Lord said to Joshua I have given you Jerico. At Judges 2:1, the3 angel of the Lord brought you up out of Egypt and led you into the land I HAVE SWORN to your fathers, and said I will never break My covenant."

The Hebrew word for angel is "malak." It means "Messenger, Sent One, Angel. The context determines how it is used. At Malachi 3:1, God says, I am going to send My angel/messenger, and he will clear the way before Me" This is referring to John the Baptist and John is not an angel. Continuing on with the verse, "And the Lord whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple;" This is the Lord Jesus Christ.

Continuing on, and the malak/angel/messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming, says the Lord of hosts." This is referring to "THE" angel of the Lord, the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ who is not an angel but the "messenger" of the Lord in the OT. As a side note, the prophet Malachi, (a human being) well his name is from the word "malak/messenger." Human prophets are messengers.

When I address this issue, I use or post Genesis 22:15-16 last and then I quote Hebrews 6:13-17 which backs up the identity of the angel of the Lord as God. Why? Because it is God who swore the oath to Abraham and at Genesis it's the angel of the Lord who swore the oath, which means that the angel of the Lord is not an actual angel because it is proven from these text angels can't swear oaths on behalf of God. That's also why the text says God swore the oath, "By Myself."

Normally, when I discuss this issue I always start with Genesis 16:7. Why? Because this is the first mention of the angel of the Lord as the angel of the Lord.

He says to Hagar at Genesis 16:8, "Where have you come from and where are you going? At vs9, TAOL says, "Return to Sarai. Vs, TAOL says, "moreover, I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count." At vs11, he says, "Behold, you are with child and describes the child as a wild donkey of a man. In today's context Ishmael is the progenitor of the Arabs.

At vs13 Hagar says, "Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou are a God who sees; for she said, "Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him." Now watch this? Genesis 17:1-5, "Now when Abraham was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abraham and said to him. (this was a physical appearance).

I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless. Vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly. Vs3, "And Abraham fell on his face and God talked with him, saying, Vs4, "As for Me, behold My covenant is with you, And you shall the father of a multitude of nations. Vs5, No longer shall you name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I will make you the Father of a multitude of nations."

So here's the question? Is the being that multiplied Hagar's descendants the same being who multiplied Abraham's descendants? The reason I know this was a physical appearance of God is from Genesis 17:22, "And when He finished talking with him/Abraham, God went up from Abraham."

The angel of the Lord also appeared (physically) again to Abraham at Genesis 18 along with two actual angels. All through Genesis 18 God and Abraham have an interesting conversation which you can read for yourselves. At Genesis 18:33, (the last verse) says, "And as soon as He had finished speaking to Abraham the Lord departed; and Abraham returned to his place. What about the two angels? Genesis 19:1, "Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening etc."

So now we know who the angel of the Lord is and what he did at Genesis 22:15-18. And as stated earlier, the angel of the Lord makes numerous appearances in the OT. And btw, "THE" angel of the Lord never appears in the New Testament as "THE" angel of the Lord.

Moreover, Jesus is the only person who qualifies because God the Father has no separate manifestation from the Son. The Son is the only manifestation and revelation of the Father. What is known of the Father is revealed through the Son. To see the Son is to see the essence of the Father. (John 1:1,18; John 10:30, John 12:45, Colossians 1:15 and Hebrews 1:3.)

Finally, and to put all of this in a "capsulated" form. One is making a "category" error when you compare "Titles" with "Ontological" beings. Jesus Christ cannot be both an actual angel and at the same time a created human being or "a god." He is the Lord God Almighty!

Answer 4

In the NT verses like Jude, Revelations and Thessalonians verses, especially the 1 Thess 4:16 distinguishes the archangel with Christ, as both are separately mentioned in the same verse. The identification of the archangels and the Metatron had been developing until the NT was written, and even if any author (ancient or modern) maybe interpreted to combine the two, we shouldn't be inferring that the author is (necessarily) presenting Christ as a created being, as that is an assumption we impose on the text from our own particular angelology.

Angel can be a linguistic characteristic of the uncreated Logos or Metatron, and it can also be a classification of the created heavenly beings, as we see in the Pauline text where he separates the Son of God with all created beings, presenting him as the source of all creation.

Since there is only one chief angel in heaven and there is no such thing as Jesus' angels and Michael's angels then it follows that Jesus is the arch-angel Michael , but if the later is true then any angel even the arch-angel was created and hence Jesus being created means he is not God.

This conclusion hinges on two premises, that is there is only one archangel, and that no angel can be uncreated, one with God. There are four archangels identified among Jews and Catholics. Wikipedia states:

The English word archangel is derived from Greek ἀρχάγγελος (arkhángelos), the Greek prefix "arch-" meaning "chief". A common misconception is that archangels are the highest rank of angel in Christianity. This misconception stems from John Milton's Paradise Lost (1667)and likely confusion over the "arch-" prefix.[4]'The Methodist New Connexion Magazine and Evangelical Repository, Volume XXXV., Third Series. London: William Cooke. 1867'

In Judaism however, the highest ranking angels such as Michael, Raphael, Gabriel and Uriel, who are usually referred to as archangels in English, are given the title of śārīm (Hebrew: שָׂרִים, sing. שָׂר, śār), meaning "princes", to show their superior rank and status

It also says "Some branches of the faiths mentioned have identified a group of seven to eight archangels, but the named angels vary, depending on the source" (Blackwell dictionary of Eastern Christianity).

There have been clear evidence of multiple references describing a fluid complex overlap between a certain angel and God, which lead to the interpretation to identify that angel with the Messiah.

The recurrence of the fluidity model in Judaism of the first millennium C.E. is even more pronounced in the mysticism of that period. We saw in Chapter 2 that some biblical passages display a notion of an “angel” or mal’akh who is a part of God but does not encompass all of God. These angels have acted separately from Yhwh, but they also overlapped with God and could even be referred to as Yhwh. The idea of an angel whose self to some degree overlaps with Yhwh but did not exhaust Yhwh’s self is picked up in mystical texts of the rabbinic era – that is in merkavah (chariot) mysticism, in heikhalot (palace) mysticism, and in the texts known as Shi’ur Qomah (measuring the height or the body [of God]). This biblical idea of the angel becomes evident in the figure variously called the “angel of the Presence” (mal’akh hapanim), the “prince of the Presence” (sar hapanim), Yahoel, and Metatron. Some texts identified this figure as a “little Yhwh,” a designation that attests at once to the figure’s overlap with God and the fact that this figure does not incorporate important aspects of God. In some of these texts, we are even told that the divine figure called Metatron had once been the human being Enoch. In these texts, then, God’s self overlaps with another being in a manner reminiscent of the ancient Near Eastern theology we examined in Chapter 1. Significantly, the idea of Metatron as a “little Yhwh,” one whose “Name is like his Master’s” (as b. Sanhedrin 38b puts it), is especially associated with Exodus 23.21, a crucial E text that refers to this conception of the angel; this is the case in b. Sanhedrin 38b, which nevertheless insists on some distinction between God and Metatron as well, because this text states that one is not allowed to pray to Metatron. In this case, a late example of the fluidity model has correctly found one of its sources in biblical literature itself. – Benjamin D. Sommer, The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel, p. 128-129

It is important to note some of the additional terms that were used by Jews to identify at least one of the hypostatic persons of YHWH. In the quote above Sommer lists the terms “Yahoel,” “little YHWH,” and “Metatron” as titles that Jews used in the rabbinic period (2nd century AD through 18th century AD) when discussing a person of YHWH who was YHWH and yet was also somehow distinct from YHWH. As Sommer states, these titles were connected to the “angel of YHWH” figure featured in Exodus and later passages. Jewish belief in this divine hypostatic person who was God and yet distinct from God was apparently widespread in pre-rabbinic periods of Judaism. As Segal explains, such beliefs were probably not opposed by the rabbis.

No one can convincingly date the traditions in the Merkabah documents to the first-century rabbinic community. But there is some independent evidence that the ideas in which we are interested were well developed within apocalypticism as early as the first century. This is amply illustrated by the Apocalypse of Abraham which is usually dated to the late first century after the destruction of the temple, or early second century. In this work, Yahoel is given a major role. Yahoel himself says in his revelation to Abraham: “I am called Yahoel by Him who moveth that which existed in me on the seventh expanse upon the firmament, a power in virtue of the ineffable Name that is dwelling in me.” Obviously this, like the YHWH the lesser traditions we have seen, is a reference to the angel of Ex. 23:21. It is evident that the figure is a personification of the name itself. From the text it is quite clear that Yahoel is God’s vice-regent, second only to God himself, and is the supreme figure in Jewish angelology. The Apocalypse of Abraham is contemporary or earlier than the first mention of “two powers” in rabbinic literature, but was probably not the target, since it is not clearly heretical and the rabbis’ earliest reports mention gentiles as the targets. This kind of evidence indicates that the ideas about an angel carrying God’s name enjoyed a fairly wide distribution, only some of which was in heretical circles. – Alan F. Segal, Two Powers in Heaven, p. 196

In the “Parables of Enoch” there is a long excursion on the value of the hidden, divine name, by which the world was created and which the “son of man” learns. The work is dated variously to pre-Christian times, to the first, second and later centuries. What is most important is that there is an explicit reference to the use of God’s hidden name as a weapon in an imprecation against demons or fallen angels, as well as in the creation of the world. Because of this name, all aspects of creation do homage to God, yet it becomes the possession of the “son of man.” These traditions seem to refer to the tetragrammaton, whose pronunciation was probably already guarded. Similar traditions are based on the magical papyri and in esoteric circles in Judaism. Of course, these traditions are datable with any surety only to the third century…In the Sefer Yetzira, written between the third and sixth centuries, the whole creation is described as proceeding from the name of God. In the Sefer ha-Qoma the ineffable name is expressly identified with Metatron Yahoel. In III Enoch, Yahoel is also named YHWH the lessor (7, 12:5, 48). YHWH the lessor is also found in the Gnostic Pistis Sophia (ch. 7). Thus, it seems very likely that, by the beginning of the second century and back into the first century as well, there existed apocalyptic speculations about the name of God as a mediator of creation which probably was very early connected with the idea that this mediation could also be portrayed by a principal angel. – Alan F. Segal, Two Powers in Heaven, p. 196-197